Restoration

chiefdave

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Texas Star responded to a thread I started with;

"Given its condition, I hope it'll see a competent restoration, if the OP can afford that."

To me there a 2 types of restorations, mechanical and cosmetic. Mechanical restorations are a must for me, all but 2 revolvers in my small collection are shooters and I don't mind spending what it takes to make them so.

Cosmetics are another thing. A solvent bath, some bronze wool/oil and a coat of Ren Wax are all they get except for replacing a buggered screw if required.

These old Smiths are only original once.
 
Every old gun doesn't need restoration.

I agree, I am one that loves to pick up a nice cosmetic restoration and turn it into a shooter, even going so far as to shorten the barrel or have target sights installed. Once they've been messed with cosmetically they are fair game, unless the work was done by the factory...then I might re-consider messing with them anymore than the factory did.
 
I am not one to mess with the cosmetics on an original gun. I generally seek out scarcity over condition. However, this little 32-20 just might wake up engraved and nickled.
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Some guns beg for and need cosmetic work to be presentable and those have no collectors value, unless something super rare. I have a 19-3 with a 6" barrel that has turned brown. It functions OK but, is pretty humble looking. It will probably be getting a bath in blue salts in the spring when I can setup my tanks outside. I have a couple of others. A 1937 Brazilian, that is now a 45 colt, with a cut down 1950 barrel. Bruce's 32-20 is a gun begging for a facelift. They are only original once. True. None of them were originally, naked steel,, lightly pitted and ugly as a a 5 car pile up.

Would it be fair to leave a registered magnum with 20% remaining blue, light pits etc, when one had the funds and ability to return it to its former glory. That is a question that only the owner can answer. Value??? Just how many of us actually own guns simply for the money??? I have a few because I figure they were worth more than the asking price. But, I would probably be better off buying a bunch of car and truck tires and selling them in 5 to 10 years. Tires are not much fun or interesting to look at and talk about though. Gonna take out a 12 ply 16" 70 series radial and roll it down the road a couple of times to look at the tracks }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} weeeee.
 
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I can't say that I'd rule out anything. In general I avoid full restorations, but some guns can be exceptions to that also. I usually try to buy original guns in as high a condition as I can afford. But I've also purchased guns that have "issues" and done what I call "sympathetic restorations".
A restoration of this type is where I get everything functioning like new again. Then make repairs to wood to replace chips, or lightly refinish the wood, but not make it nicer than the metal's condition. I replace screws, or restore them. In the end I want a perfect functioning gun, that looks like it's not been restored, and just kept up.
But I've also purchased a rare gun that's been horribly neglected, or abused, at a bargain price. Often these are guns that if they were in nice shape I couldn't even afford them. Buying a wreck at a cheap price makes it a candidate for a full restoration to me. I sure don't want to leave it as a parts gun, and if it's a rare version I don't want to part it out. So these are candidates for a full restoration in my book. Sure they wont ever be original again. But considering their condition, are they really original when they're that far gone? I'd rather see them restored, than see them so abused.
 
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Well, that answers a question that I had. Thanks, y'all!

Several of my guns got a little too wet when water and foam got into my gun safe. They have all been cleaned and re-cleaned, they function perfectly, but they're no longer pretty. I will likely sell a number of them as shooters, especially the 2" K frames, just to cut down on the overcrowding in my safe. Funny how attitudes can change after a fire! Previously, I never considered their sale.

Oh, well...........
 
Train Wrecks and Restoration

I totally agree with mm93, there are pieces of old guns that beg to be shooters, they deserve more then a place in the "bone yard". Case in point, I found a 5" barreled frame at a gun show a number of years ago. It was a 44Spl Triple Lock and was my first experience with this model S&W. It was the beginning of a love affair. Six years later and the search for the "holy grail" of parts gave birth to a shooter and she was again ready to ride the range. It was the beginning of my education about triple locks and new friends in the "gun community". I now own 7 triple lock shooters and I am still in love with them, some needed only TLC, while others needed "brain surgery". BTW two of them lettered as 4" nickel guns.
 

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I totally agree with mm93, there are pieces of old guns that beg to be shooters, they deserve more then a place in the "bone yard". Case in point, I found a 5" barreled frame at a gun show a number of years ago. It was a 44Spl Triple Lock and was my first experience with this model S&W. It was the beginning of a love affair. Six years later and the search for the "holy grail" of parts gave birth to a shooter and she was again ready to ride the range. It was the beginning of my education about triple locks and new friends in the "gun community". I now own 7 triple lock shooters and I am still in love with them, some needed only TLC, while others needed "brain surgery". BTW two of them lettered as 4" nickel guns.

You gotta love those nice smooth rounded edges on the sideplate.
 
Texas Star responded to a thread I started with;

"Given its condition, I hope it'll see a competent restoration, if the OP can afford that."

To me there a 2 types of restorations, mechanical and cosmetic. Mechanical restorations are a must for me, all but 2 revolvers in my small collection are shooters and I don't mind spending what it takes to make them so.

Cosmetics are another thing. A solvent bath, some bronze wool/oil and a coat of Ren Wax are all they get except for replacing a buggered screw if required.

These old Smiths are only original once.

Suit yourself. It's your gun. But I feel sorry for it.

I don't own ugly guns. I don't tolerate ugly anythings.

I'm sorry if I got to you over that to the point that you used my quote to start a whole thread over it. :eek:

Yeah, a gun is only original once. But it can be made to look original again, and that's what I'd want in my holster, not a worn or pitted remnant of its former glory. I don't have "truck guns" "beater" guns, etc.

As I said, it's your gun. I guess our tastes just vary...a lot. Fortunately, that's neither illegal or fattening.
 
Suit yourself. It's your gun. But I feel sorry for it.

I don't own ugly guns. I don't tolerate ugly anythings.

I'm sorry if I got to you over that to the point that you used my quote to start a whole thread over it. :eek:

Yeah, a gun is only original once. But it can be made to look original again, and that's what I'd want in my holster, not a worn or pitted remnant of its former glory. I don't have "truck guns" "beater" guns, etc.

As I said, it's your gun. I guess our tastes just vary...a lot. Fortunately, that's neither illegal or fattening.

When I started this thread my intent was to bring out how diverse S&W collectors are. Some seek rarity, others high condition and still others history. Being primarily a military collector I prize history and function over condition. An arsenal rebuild is OK as it helps trace history but a commercial reblue or repark, no matter how well done, is a pass for me no matter how "pretty".

It's a good thing that as S&W collectors we don't all fall into the same niche or prices would skyrocket.
 
Bruce

I have a 32/20 in the 40xxx serial number range, like yours. I'll try to post some pictures before and after Dave Chicoine work. It needed a lot of help !

Regards, Mike Priwer
 
Thanks Mike.
I would love to see it. I wasn't real enthusiastic about the condition of this one, but it gives me 4, 5 & 6" now in the 32-20 target.
Regards,
Bruce
Bruce

I have a 32/20 in the 40xxx serial number range, like yours. I'll try to post some pictures before and after Dave Chicoine work. It needed a lot of help !

Regards, Mike Priwer

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I usually refrain from "Restoration" but sometimes a good cosmetic upgrade is in order.

Before and after of an abused Model 27 I picked up a few years ago at a LGS.
 

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Here are two pictures of the 4" 32/20 target revolver, before Dave Chicoine worked on it. The grips were well-worn, and everything that should be tight-fitting was loose-fitting.

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Keith Brown recheckered the grips, and Dave did a lot of tightening, and then reblued the gun. Here are two pictures of the gun, after all the work.

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Regards, Mike
 
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I have one that I also sit on the fence about. A 1902 Target 5" barrel with all numbers matching. There is no finish left and the gun shoots wonderfully well, even with its slightly pitted barrel. Somedays it's get it done and others it's leave it alone. An ongoing quandary that I wonder if I will ever resolve.

Stu
q23gr98
 
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Agree with Stu

I have one that I also sit on the fence about. A 1902 Target 5" barrel with all numbers matching. There is no finish left and the gun shoots wonderfully well, even with its slightly pitted barrel. Somedays it's get it done and others it's leave it alone. An ongoing quandary that I wonder if I will ever resolve.

Stu
q23gr98

My Model of 1905, 4th Change left the factory 6/2/25. No finish on it at all and it looks like Stu's except the bore is very good and it shoots to POA at 5 yards with wad cutters. wouldn't change a thing except would like to put the correct grips on it.
 
When I started this thread my intent was to bring out how diverse S&W collectors are. Some seek rarity, others high condition and still others history. Being primarily a military collector I prize history and function over condition. An arsenal rebuild is OK as it helps trace history but a commercial reblue or repark, no matter how well done, is a pass for me no matter how "pretty".

It's a good thing that as S&W collectors we don't all fall into the same niche or prices would skyrocket.

I love firearms history, and it plays a huge part in my interest in old guns. Very few old guns can talk to us and tell us who owned them and where they've been. The guns that show signs of what they went through, or can be documented to certain places or individuals need to be saved from restoration. Would anyone here own a gun documented to a well known person in history and restore that gun? I'd hope not.
This is off topic as a non S&W, but relates to the subject at hand. I purchased an early #1 Rolling Block Sporting Rifle a couple years ago at a big gun show, and my intent was to strip off everything except the receiver and build it up as a shooter. Since there were less than 12,000 Sporting Rifles total among all models, it was great to find one cheap that had extra holes in the barrel and frame, and pieces broken out of the stocks. Perfect choice to use as a donor.
Then I began to tear it apart, and stripped the wood off, and got ready to spin the barrel off in my barrel vise. As I clamped it up I noticed a name on the barrel that was hidden under the forearm. It read, "E. C. Hackett" and I thought I should Google the name before I went further. That's always fun anyway!
To my surprise the search exploded with information on EC Hackett, and more surprising he was a famous person locally here in Oregon. With the new information I contacted the Oregon City Historical Society and talked to the curator. I asked if she had any information on EC Hackett, and she chuckled, but asked how much I wanted? I told her I wanted anything, and she said she had over 2500 pages of documentation on EC Hackett.
I arranged to visit her, and took the gun along (after reassembling it) so she could see it. Turned out EC Hackett was born near Oregon City in 1851 and was one of the first deputy sheriffs in Oregon City. His father was also part of the posse sent to track down renegade Indians who killed Dr. Whitman and his family, who were the first missionaries and settlers in the Territory. Later EC was mayor of Oregon City, and then county recorder until his death in the 1930's. The end of the Oregon Trail is marked in his front yard, and his home is still there aand preserved as a historical site.
After getting copies of EC Hackett history, and learning of his notoriety, I began a careful repair of the broken stocks, and metal damage, while retaining as much originality to the gun as possible. It's now a much better looking rifle, but still has no finish left. But it's a piece of local history, and as such I'll leave it alone, and some day donate it to the museum here for their use. I wish it was a pristine minty gun, but I certainly wont remove all traces of it's history.
 
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Count me among those who "don't fix it if ain't broke."

Just because the baby's ugly doesn't mean I can't love the Baby!

I just got off the phone and made a deal on the one in the photos. Good price, not a steal by any means, but I'm happy. We were originally off by about the price of a Double Quarter Pounder® meal so I'll eat lunch at home today. Mechanics are good, and If it needs a bath in auto trans fluid and acetone, followed by a bronze wool scrub, Flitz polish and a coat of Ren wax, I'm ready.

It's Baby Chiefs 3970, shipped in May '52 (Thank YOU, Roy), smooth ramp front sight and has later, Big Chiefs grips. It's as close as I've gotten to my June birth month, and I've got a pair of grips that'll make it look "original" -- they're not serial numbered, and they're a bit beat up, too. Perfect.

Add a Tyler T-grip adapter, and it could become my edc.
 

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First and foremost it depends entirely on who does the work, when the factory does the work in my opinion it doesn't depreciate the work all that much, when someone rounds off corners and sideplates that's another story altogether. There was a time when true genious was displayed by people at getting a restoration right. I had a 32-20 that was rendered junk by a well meaning soul that just got in over his head, its one thing for someone to take on a project for himself to see what he can do....another thing to ruin someone else's piece. I tried to be understanding but in the end will no longer do any form of business with this individual do to further negligence on another unrelated issue. Some people can't be trusted to polished the heel of their shoes. My father would interview a prospective employee and one of the things he looked for was how well shined the heel of a guys shoes were. He told me this and I was curious and said "What difference does it make whether or not he polished the heel of his shoes?" The old man said "A man that doesn't polish his heels doesn't wipe his a##." Again this did not make any sense to me but then some of the stuff he said didn't always make sense, other stuff did. Thats just something that stuck with me and today makes sense, a man that doesn't polish his heels is only out to make a good first impression. What about the guy that never polishes his shoes....or wears loafers? He never worked for my old man that's for sure. The old man would say "Why do you think they call them "loafers"? Do you think I'm going to get any work out of that guy?"
Funny...sorry to digress.
 
Here is one with zero original finish left. This is the one that got me into S&W in the first place. I would never consider letting anyone refinish it.
My "restoration" consisted of matching it to period stocks and leather

Very tastefully done. Is that a factory target or a conversion?
 
Dave,
It is a factory 4" target with Lyman ivory bead. It shipped to one of the infamous Hatfield clan who was subsequently killed, along with his brother, during an ambush which arose from a dispute over bootlegging territory. His guns disappeared from the scene.

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Dave - The zero finish look is intriguing.

The person who put those ..... yellow grips on that revolver should not be trusted with firearms.
 
To refinish or not to refinish ...

Mike and Stu have great examples of two different types of wear and aging. (of their guns I mean) Mike's 32/20 has a kind of a flaked look to the bluing ; I have several that look like that. Stu's 1902 exhibits a total absence of bluing and a fine patina. I do not have such an example ; still looking.

(sidebar : I fail to understand how each of the two come about , especially the white to patina condition --- how does the finish disappear so totally while leaving the steel relatively clean and undamaged or rusted?)

As to the decision , I would never consider refinishing a gun with the fine smooth patina condition. I find that state far to attractive to wipe out with a blue reset. The spotty irregular blue , on the other hand , is less attractive to me. I have several in that condition which I I have considered sending in for reblue.

The key word here is "considered" - I have not yet been able to pull that trigger.
 
I've been struggling for 4 or 5 years (since I got this one) of what to do with it,if anything. It is a HD from 1936. Shipped to the Amsterdam, NY police Dept. Hump back hammer.

Somebody apparently thought it would look better if they took Naval Jelly and removed ALL of the blue. There are no nicks or scratches on it. I know from the factory letter it was blue.

hbh.jpg
 
"John Wayne Yellow" is in fact the color represented on those stocks. Not my choice either but to each his own.
An old gunsmith friend of mine has an original 1st model SAA that someone sold him back in the sixties, I believe its in 38/44. He decided to mess around with it in his spare time. Over the years he did some fairly decent hand engraving on it, converted the hammer and trigger over to Bisley style, removed all of the blueing, polished everything that was previously blue, hand carved his own steer head stocks out of ivory...all over a period of decades. He was always an excellent gunsmith, capable of working on nearly everything that came his way and the piece shows his skill level. When you first examine it you would be led to believe that the work was done at least by the factory, the engraving is tasteful and simple, mostly line type engraving. It looks as if it were nickel plated and would be a problem if ever exposed to the elements because it is simply in the white. What many people don't realize is that many early military firearms were issued in the white and over decades have turned brown, which is merely a controlled rust process.
I'm fond of the Bisley Colts as they are the only Colt SAA style handguns that fit my hand, I'm not crazy about the caliber 38/44, nor am I in love with the steerhead stocks....but considering the source and work involved this piece is considered priceless among the people that knew old Will. It was one of his personal prized possessions and portrays his full skill level with firearms.
 
I have three types of S&W loves: 1) Mint, 2) mint and Engraved, and 3) well-used and well cared for. Here is one that needed a little TLC as it came to me in a condition that fit none of my loves - but it was priced very well...

A 5-Screw 357

Before (some light pitting and bluing rash, but great mechanically):





After (a little P Quigley cutting, and some KB Wood):





... it is amazing what a couple of master craftsmen can do to an unsightly gun...
 
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