reversed HBWCs as defensive ammo

[Cariboo Canuck]

Good to know when attacked by a bucket of sand.

It's hard to find a cadaver to shoot into these days and pig carcasses ala the Thompson/LaGarde tests are expensive, unless you're using a feral hog as a subject.

 

[T2C]

.............Ammo companies likely don't offer reversed HBWCs for Fear of the old "Dum Dum" bullet issue, not because they don't work...........

......In the case I mentioned above, the exchange took place over the rear end of a full sized car. If I recall, the deceased was hit three times in the torso area.

I seriously doubt the ammunition companies have concerns about "Dum-Dum" cartridges in the U.S., but who knows about Canada.

I've heard a lot of urban legend about reversed HBWC since the 1970's and this is the first shooting incident I've heard about where the cartridge was used. I'd love to see the autopsy photos and read the forensic report(s).

If reversed HBWC ammunition was a profitable item, companies would make it.

 

[H Richard]

I have a partial box I loaded back in the early 80's. They are in the bottom of one of my ammo cans and not used in years. The discussions of actually using them and the possibilities of them being singled out as a dangerous load being used by someone "looking for" an opportunity to shoot someone "killer hand load", was enough for me to forget about using them. They were accurate to 10-15 yards, but I never had the proper media to see the expansion.

 

[crazyphil]

This subject came up before. At that time Atomic Ammo was making
148-Gr. HBWC loaded backward to create a hollow point.
There is also a video on you tube showing gel tests of the load.
Seems to be controversial. Some pros and lots of cons.

Here is a picture of some HBWC hollow points. Not great
details. A local guy reloads them and sells them at gun shows.

I shot one into a "target" with the 642 (shown) from 3 (three) feet.
The "target" was 3/4" plywood with 4" x 4" patch consisting of
a layer of leather, a layer of denim, and two layers of cotton.
in back of the plywood 12" of compressed sponge rubber.
in back of the rubber another 3/4" plywood.

The shot went clean through the whole thing and kicked up
dirt about 40 feet down range.

The exit wound was a nasty jagged hole about an inch diameter.

Not real scientific, but it tells me something about the load.

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

The discussions of actually using them and the possibilities of them being singled out as a dangerous load being used by someone "looking for" an opportunity to shoot someone "killer hand load", was enough for me to forget about using them.
QUOTE]

This is really the likely reason ammo companies don't offer them.
They may save your life, but you may not win the next battle in court.

 

[rwsmith]

Speer is making a killing......

....and a .22 Short or a .25 ACP could have stopped the perp just as well, but you're not going to find a lot of people saying its a good idea to carry pistols in those calibers.

If reverse HBWC ammo was such a great SD load, EVERY major ammo company would be making such ammo (and they don't).

Speer recognized the value of the big open hollow point (developed from the 'flying ashtray' SWC type bullet with a BIG hole). They refined it, increasing it's sale value, into the Gold Dot bullet. Similar idea, but much more refined in an jhp that was designed to perform repeatably.

 

[T2C]

This subject came up before. At that time Atomic Ammo was making
148-Gr. HBWC loaded backward to create a hollow point.
There is also a video on you tube showing gel tests of the load.
Seems to be controversial. Some pros and lots of cons.

Here is a picture of some HBWC hollow points. Not great
details. A local guy reloads them and sells them at gun shows.

I shot one into a "target" with the 642 (shown) from 3 (three) feet.
The "target" was 3/4" plywood with 4" x 4" patch consisting of
a layer of leather, a layer of denim, and two layers of cotton.
in back of the plywood 12" of compressed sponge rubber.
in back of the rubber another 3/4" plywood.

The shot went clean through the whole thing and kicked up
dirt about 40 feet down range.

The exit wound was a nasty jagged hole about an inch diameter.

Not real scientific, but it tells me something about the load.

It's incredible that the projectile penetrated that much material

Thanks for the information.

 

[crazyphil]

Here is a quote by a gun magazine writer named Will Hafler. Sorry I
didn't keep the name and date of the magazine.
"a report from a midwestern police force...one of their officers hit his
assailant with one of these loads (the 148-Gr. wadcutter loaded backward
so that the hollow base acts as a hollow point) in a point blank gunfight...
after which he (the assailant) just couldn't lie down and die fast enough."

 

[jimmyj]

Question: who makes a .45 caliber HB wad cutter bullet ?

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

Here is a quote by a gun magazine writer named Will Hafler. Sorry I
didn't keep the name and date of the magazine.
"a report from a midwestern police force...one of their officers hit his
assailant with one of these loads (the 148-Gr. wadcutter loaded backward
so that the hollow base acts as a hollow point) in a point blank gunfight...
after which he (the assailant) just couldn't lie down and die fast enough."

Can't be true. According to some of the 'sperts on the forum, they don't/can't work.

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

Question: who makes a .45 caliber HB wad cutter bullet ?

Winchester used to offer a HB 250 gr swaged bullet. I have some some that mike .454 so you might want to swadge them down to .451/.452

 

[crazyphil]

Can't be true. According to some of the 'sperts on the forum, they don't/can't work.

You surely don't think those gun magazine writers could be
mistaken? Or lie to us?

 

[Ptarmigan]

Of all the U.S. and numerous global ammunition manufacturers that market to North America, I can't name one that offers this round. Many of these companies have ammunition development departments and divisions.

Regardless whether a couple of bad guys and a few rabbits may have met their demise from a backward HBWC over the last half century, there are some pretty savvy folks with lots of money and state of the art testing facilities that apparently don't feel this round can compete.

A 57 Chevy is pretty nifty, and MAY be able to get you from coast to coast, but it doesn't practically compete with modern vehicles and technology.

 

[Gamecock]

'reversed HBWCs as defensive ammo'

Bad idea. Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration. The reversed HBWC will have extremely limited penetration.

 

[Cariboo Canuck]

'reversed HBWCs as defensive ammo'

Bad idea. Ballistic personal defense weapons work by penetration. The reversed HBWC will have extremely limited penetration.

.... which is one of their virtues if "over penetration" is an issue, like in a home or apartment. A hunting bullet that expands and expends it's energy in the body of the animal is said to be more effective than one that merely goes through leaving a pencil sized hole. Many hunters can vouch for that and why FMJ ammo is not allowed for hunting in most jurisdictions.

Compared to a .38 LRN, .32ACP or .380ACP FMJ from a pocket pistol, a M36 with reversed HBWCs sounds like a better deal.

You pays you money -you takes you choice.

It's a moot question for us Canucks who are denied CCW by the politicians who have 24/7 armed protection at public expense. The use of a firearm for self protection this side of the DMZ puts you in more trouble than the creep who broke into your house and threatened you and/or your family.

You may be exonerated in court, but it's going to bankrupt you, the process part of the punishment.

 

[Gamecock]

The problem with handguns is ADEQUATE penetration.

 

[Ptarmigan]

You may be exonerated in court, but it's going to bankrupt you, the process part of the punishment.

That unfortunately is the case in the states, too. Having the police or courts determine your situation was a "good shoot" does not protect you from civil suits. They can drain your life savings.

 

[Mistered]

Question: who makes a .45 caliber HB wad cutter bullet ?

Berry's makes a HB RN bullet but I have never see a WC in .45.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

I have used them to shoot into animals. My penetration results did not meet FBI specs. My loads were only going about 775-800 fps. That could have very well been some of my problem. I have loaded HBWCs in the correct direction, to 158 OAL specs with a 000 buckshot in the hollow end. This will give you about 200 grains and a hit on target on the average on a 3 inch spread at 10 yards. Probably again not the FBI required penetration. I have, do and will carry either load in my Js.

 

[oldman10mm]

Here's two from long ago,70s'/80s' ? I was given them by a coin shop proprietor back then. Was only given two and put them aside. Headstamp is HYDRA-SHOK. Don't know the manufacturer. Not to be confused with the current Federal Hydra-Shok,but maybe they were Federals' early/initial version.