Revolver caliber and number of shots

[Cal44]

We have had lots of discussions about suitable caliber for self defense, but there is a related issue that comes into play to muddy the waters.

The number of shots.

Considering only J frame snubs for the moment,

You have 22LR like the 43C with 8 shots.

22 Mag like 351C with 7 shots.

32 Caliber guns like M31s with 6 shots.

And 38 special guns like M36/60 with 5 shots.

Now clearly, in an SD incident hitting the BG with a 38 is probably more effective than the smaller rounds.

But were does the number of shots come into the equation?

Surely more is better in number of rounds in the revolver.

So does is the difference between 32 and 38 sp made up for by having 6 shots rather than 5? Or 7 rather than 5 in the case of 22 mag vs 38?

I talking specifically about small revolvers here -- although I'm sure someone will suggest I toss my revolvers and get a double stack 9mm.

 

[Ashlander]

It's the number of shots only in a static situation. If the bad guy is coming at you then the first one or two shots has to count. You have to get it done in a hurry.

 

[629shooter]

I don't loose any sleep over it. But, you have to be comfortable with your choice. I will say that I prefer a center-fire cartridge.

 

[at_liberty]

We have had lots of discussions about suitable caliber for self defense, but there is a related issue that comes into play to muddy the waters.

The number of shots.

Considering only J frame snubs for the moment,

You have 22LR like the 43C with 8 shots.

22 Mag like 351C with 7 shots.

32 Caliber guns like M31s with 6 shots.

And 38 special guns like M36/60 with 5 shots.

Now clearly, in an SD incident hitting the BG with a 38 is probably more effective than the smaller rounds.

But were does the number of shots come into the equation?

Surely more is better in number of rounds in the revolver.

So does is the difference between 32 and 38 sp made up for by having 6 shots rather than 5? Or 7 rather than 5 in the case of 22 mag vs 38?

I talking specifically about small revolvers here -- although I'm sure someone will suggest I toss my revolvers and get a double stack 9mm.

To make the gun easiest to carry and conceal, you either reduce the caliber or the number of rounds, your choice. I have included whether the rounds will be subsonic for the sake of shooting without hearing protection. I also prefer enough velocity to expand hollow points.

You have not listed 32 H&R, which to me is a pretty good six shooter option.

 

[BB57]

More wound tracks mean more chances to score the cardio pulmonary or CNS hit needed for rapid incapacitation, and that's only partially offset by smaller bullet diameter.

On the other hand, the bullet also has to penetrate deep enough to be effective, and obviously, hollow point expansion is nice in terms in increasing the area of the wound channel.

You have to look at the entire picture though, and there are always compromises.

The ballistic performance of a standard pressure .38 Special in a 1 7/8" to 2 1/8" barrel isn't all that inspiring, and a good self defense load in .380 ACP fired from 3.5" to 4" barrel will perform at least as well - with the added benefit of 7 or 8 rounds in the gun compared to 5 in a similar sized snub nose .38.

But once you up the .38 Special to a +P load, that difference is once again offset, and when you step up to a .357 Magnum, you'v got a very capable cartridge even in a 2" barrel.

On the other hand, that standard pressure .38 load is very controllable, where the .357 magnum will take a lot more practice and ability on the part of the shooter to make those 5 shots count. If th shooter can't score rapid hits with a .357 or .38 P+, he or she is still better off with a standard pressure .38 - or perhaps a Walther PP in .380 ACP.

That's where the potential benefit of a .32 caliber cartridge starts to look appealing - good velocity offering decent hollow point performance and adequate penetration with manageable recoil. Unfortunately, they've just never been all that popular in the US as we seem to have a strong bias against anything smaller than .355" diameter.

The .327 Federal Magnum can launch a 100 grain bullet at around 1450 fps compared to the .357 Magnum with a 110 gr bullet at 1650 fps in a similar length barrel. But in truth, given similar ballistics, both are also comparable in felt recoil in a similar weight barrel at similar velocities. Consequently, the .327 Federal doesn't offer anything over a light recoil load in the much better established .357 Magnum - other than an extra cartridge in the cylinder - and so far, that doesn't seem to be a selling point for .327 Magnum revolvers.

The .32 H&R is another great caliber and can launch the same 100 grain bullet to a very credible 1150-1200 fps, but it's also never caught on as a self defense cartridge.

 

[BigBill]

I prefer the 357mag, 41mag or 44mag for ccw. One well placed shot should be a stopper.

The bad guys probably carry double stack 9's or a 40cal. I'd lean that there carrying 9mm. There spray and hope they hit something.

My 44mag is loaded for 1400fps /200gr jhp bullet.
My 357mag is loaded for 1597fps /125gr jhp bullet.

 

[P33v3]

I've been carrying my 41 Magnum Nightguard a lot lately but am just as comfortable carrying my 5 shot Ruger SP101 (I'd rather it be a S&W but S&W seems to only want to produce airweights these days and my 340CT was like hitting yourself in the hand with a hammer to shoot). Either way I go more for power in snubbies over capacity. I do carry anywhere from 1-3 extra speed loaders or speed strips. Unless arthritis is a concern I'd go with a larger caliber. As was previously mentioned your first couple of shots are critical. To quote (allegedly) Wyatt Earp "Take your time, Fast". Meaning reference your sights and take careful aim. You'll feel like you're moving through oatmeal but due to the tachypsychia effect you're actually moving probably faster than you ever have.

 

[Old cop]

Depending on my mode of dress I'll have either a 442 or M&P .380, sans laser. I'm confident w/either one but the reality is you have to carry what will always be with you, and one you can shoot accurately under pressure. I've been "there" during my 30 yr. LEO days and know from experience that the .38 FBI load works just fine. As to the .380 I hope to never have to find out, but street use seems to be okay w/this weapon.

 

[gwpercle]

Don't forget the Paranoia factor. The more paranoid a person is, the more shots are required. For example.

Totally not paranoid factor is -1 , a 22 rim fire is fine, and thats left at home most days.
Concerned but not not paranoid so a factor of 1.0 is assigned , 5 shot 38 special works fine.
Slightly paranoid , factor is 1.2 , he needs 6 shots, 38 cal. 357 magnum preferred.
Somewhat paranoid, factor is 1.4, he needs 7 shots, 38 cal. 357 magnum preferred
Mildly paranoid factor is 1.6, he needs 8 shots. 40 cal. is better
Paranoid enough to affect everyday life factor is 2.0, he needs 10 shots. 45 cal.
Paranoid Schizophrenic factor is 10.0 , he needs 50 shots . cal is not important , with 50 rounds he figures can get everybody in a 1/4 mile radius.

 

[foytfoyt]

That's where the potential benefit of a .32 caliber cartridge starts to look appealing - good velocity offering decent hollow point performance and adequate penetration with manageable recoil. Unfortunately, they've just never been all that popular in the US as we seem to have a strong bias against anything smaller than .355" diameter.

The .327 Federal Magnum can launch a 100 grain bullet at around 1450 fps compared to the .357 Magnum with a 110 gr bullet at 1650 fps in a similar length barrel. But in truth, given similar ballistics, both are also comparable in felt recoil in a similar weight barrel at similar velocities. Consequently, the .327 Federal doesn't offer anything over a light recoil load in the much better established .357 Magnum - other than an extra cartridge in the cylinder - and so far, that doesn't seem to be a selling point for .327 Magnum revolvers.

The .32 H&R is another great caliber and can launch the same 100 grain bullet to a very credible 1150-1200 fps, but it's also never caught on as a self defense cartridge.

It really is a shame that 32's barely exist in US market revolvers.

The 327 Fed Mag is a win-win: More stopping power than 38 AND one more shot. Plus centerfire reliability vs 22M.

I really hope the 327 Fed Ruger SP101 sells, and then Smith brings back a J frame and large frame 327.

 

[somebrains]

Don't forget the Paranoia factor. The more paranoid a person is, the more shots are required. For example.

Totally not paranoid factor is -1 , a 22 rim fire is fine, and thats left at home most days.
Concerned but not not paranoid so a factor of 1.0 is assigned , 5 shot 38 special works fine.
Slightly paranoid , factor is 1.2 , he needs 6 shots, 38 cal. 357 magnum preferred.
Somewhat paranoid, factor is 1.4, he needs 7 shots, 38 cal. 357 magnum preferred
Mildly paranoid factor is 1.6, he needs 8 shots. 40 cal. is better
Paranoid enough to affect everyday life factor is 2.0, he needs 10 shots. 45 cal.
Paranoid Schizophrenic factor is 10.0 , he needs 50 shots . cal is not important , with 50 rounds he figures can get everybody in a 1/4 mile radius.

That totally explains the appendix carry paranoids that seem to be constantly brushing or touching the crotch region.
Must be subconscious twitches that make them want to reassure themselves.

 

[Rick_A]

Which caliber can you handle practicing with regularly? Get that one.

 

[wolverine]

We have had lots of discussions about suitable caliber for self defense, but there is a related issue that comes into play to muddy the waters. --clip

Morning Cal44

Yes, accuracy.

If a person practices a LOT, & practices under stressful situations, & can get 4 solid hits out of 5 shots, then a 5 shot 38 is probably a viable defensive weapon.

On the other hand if a person never practices, is a lousy shot, tenses up under any type of pressure, jumps the trigger on every shot even 8 shots might ALL miss.

So bottom line here is: is 8 misses better than 5 misses?

Then you have the- more-than-one-assailant situation. If you have 3 assailants bound & determined to harm you then 5 shots is pushing the limits.

But on the other side-- 8 shots of 22 that don't disable (all 3) is really no better.

It's a personal choice only you can make-- Personally I carry a higher bullet count 9mm +P or .40 semi auto pistol (something that has a better chance to disable a 350lb barrel chested muscular person with hate in his eyes & high on drugs)--even then any pistol round is iffy to stop. Eventually kill yes, stop in a reasonable time frame, no.

 

[wadcutter1]

It really is a shame that 32's barely exist in US market revolvers.

The 327 Fed Mag is a win-win: More stopping power than 38 AND one more shot. Plus centerfire reliability vs 22M.

I really hope the 327 Fed Ruger SP101 sells, and then Smith brings back a J frame and large frame 327.

Yep. I thought the 327 mag j-frame was a no-brainer. Sadly, the market didn't agree. I'm really not sure why.

On the other side, I never saw the appeal of something like the charter arms 5 shot 44 special. Wouldn't 6 rounds of 357 mag in the same size gun be better?

Until the day I manage to find a j frame in 32 Fed, I personally consider the 38 special/380 acp the minimum. I don't mean this advice, it's just my preference. If someone else chooses to carry a two shot 45-70 or miniature Gatling in 22 short, that is their business.

 

[wadcutter1]

So bottom line here is: is 8 misses better than 5 misses?

One could argue that because of the greater noise and muzzle flash at night, a miss from a 38 is better than a miss from a 22. I don't know of a study that examines this effect, if it exists at all. From my readings about shootings it seems criminals who wind up getting shot are often less than fully lucid so they might not care.

I was just reading "Shots Fired in Anger" (highly recommended and free on archive.org) where he talks about the how the 30-06 is superior to the 45 acp when you miss. IIRC, the 45 tends to terminate with a gentle thud, whereas the 30-06 makes a much more intimidating impact even in a miss with a supersonic crack and shrapnel when it hits a rock.

Doesn't anyone know of a good pocket holster for a Garand?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

On the other side, I never saw the appeal of something like the charter arms 5 shot 44 special. Wouldn't 6 rounds of 357 mag in the same size gun be better?

No, it would probably recoil too much. And back when the Charter Arms Bulldog was introduced, there wasn't a .357 Mag in a gun of the same size and weight. Nowadays, you might find someone who would tolerate the recoil and blast from such a gun, and some might consider their choice of .357 ammo better than someone else's choice of .44 Spl. And vice versa.

BTW, the Charter kicks a little, too. Enough that bullets would back out of cases with factory ammo. I had to buy a .44 Spl die and start loading my own, with a heavy crimp. But the Charter came with very good factory grips, custom-fitted to the frame by gluing in a wooden matchstick or two, so the recoil was definitely tolerable.

 

[UncleEd]

Which caliber can you handle practicing with regularly? Get that one.

This.

The rest easily falls into the blah-blah-blah what if category.

 

[steelslaver]

I currently carry one of my 44 5 shooters. I am a firm believer that a well place shot from a big bore hollow point moving a decent speed will get a bad guys attention faster than a fast small bullet. It also takes less time to blast one big hole than 2 or 3 little ones. If I ever change out to an auto it will be my 45 Commander. Your all welcome to your higher capacity small bores.

My Charter Arms Bulldog isn't pretty, it is small, light, big bore and it works.

 

[Gamecock]

If you have to fire more than once, you are probably screwed, anyway.