Revolver rifle

[IownOneorTwo]

...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!

 

[therevjay]

That was done, about 150 yrs or so ago. They didn't sell.

 

[OKFC05]

Burn the %&*@ out of your left hand if you put it over the cylinder, which is VERY easy to do with a revolver rifle. There are some foreign repros made, and they don't sell well.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Welcome to the board!

Not a good idea. The cylinder air gap will cut thru your wrist.

 

[HoosierMike]

Guys, the idea with the originals and reproductions is to hold onto the wrist of the stock with your off hand for stabilization. And no they did not sell well but they were an innovative repeating long gun in the days before inventions like the volcanic or self contained metal cartridge.
Personally, I do not think he has that bad of an idea. The main reason that the reproductions don't sell well is because they are basically a SAA.
A modern magnum design with a swing out cylinder and adjustable sights would be no more impractical than some of the pistol caliber carbines currently on the market.
Give the guy a break.

 

[n4zov]

This isn't exactly what you are looking for, but it is a move in the right direction - the Russian made KBP MTs 225 tactical revolver shotgun:

The Firearm Blog | Gun, Tactical & Hunting News

 

[therevjay]

I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.

 

[Qball]

...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!

You mean something like this?

 

[gearchecker]

Revolver rfile, no so good and idea

Didn't Uberti make one?

 

[Qball]

I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.

I think they are ment to be held like this when shooting.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

YouTube - Keep your fingers away from the cylinder edge...

 

[22steelshooter]

I have always wanted one of these...

Knight Armament's Revolver Rifle

I'd load with the heaviest pointed bullet I could get to around 920fps and have a blast. Would be great for hunting boar where legal.

 

[NE450No2]

I think if S&W brought out a 44Mag revolver rifle with an 18 to 20" barrel, they could sell all they could make.

It should be simple to design a deflector to keep the cylinder gap gas from hitting the arm of the shooter.

 

[MrJT]

Wow! I didn't expect to see Lee Van Cleef!

 

[walnutred]

You could build it using the Mosin Nagant sliding cylinder concept.

 

[Dave Nash]

A Revolving Rifle Solution

My apologies to anyone I missed but in a fast pass of the “Wish List” section of the Forum, I found a number of requests for a revolving rifle. I have included the lead postings from those threads plus any responses that mentioned or discussed the obvious problem of such guns that include a forend, which encourages the gripping of the handgun in a long-gun-like manner.

(Note that I didn’t include the wonderful picture posted by Qball from Sweden of Lee Van Cleef’s conventional two handed hold of a non-forend-employing stocked 1873 type revolver, which does show what appears to be one of the correct procedures for guns of that type.)

All of you that I list here are pretty much correct in your assumptions as to what can happen if the forend is used for a gripping or support position for such guns: the blast emitting from the “flash gap” [the all-but-necessary amount of clearance between the back of the barrel and the face of the cylinder that’s employed to keep the residue from several sources from “fouling out” (clogging and/or binding up) the revolver after repeated shots have been made] can injure the user.

It could simply be based on the current X frame hunter model. The shape of the grip area of the shoulder stock would have to properly configured to support efficient double action shooting.

I've asked a couple of custom smiths, but nobody seemed interested. I called S&W custom shop and the longest barrel they had in stock was 14 inches. Probably would be cheaper to register it as an SBR than have a custom 16 inch barrel made. But nobody ever did come up with any solid ideas on how to manage the gas blow by from the cylinder gap. Unmitigated, that would burn and lacerate my left forearm.

Here in PA, semi-autos are not allowed for hunting. So this would be the fastest shooting legal deer rifle to be had! I would venture to say, however, that one would probably have to hunt with active ear muffs, because I would imagine the blast would be significant and your head would actually be closer to it then if would if you were shooting a handgun at full extension. I hunt with electronic muffs now when I use handguns and this would be the same.

PeteM:
Have a gunsmith attach a 2.5" muzzle brake to the 14" barrel and then you would be legal. ATF has rules on their website on what constitutes the proper way to attach a muzzle brake to be legal. A lot of the AR15/M4 rifles have barrels that are 14.5" and have the brake/flash hider attached to make them legal.
Sounds like an interesting idea, but where are you going to hold your "weak" hand to avoid flame cutting your hand/wrist, while still providing a steady hold?
If you do this, please keep us informed.

Photog,

A permanently affixed muzzle break to legal length....brilliant...why didn't I think of that?! Now if I could only figure out that burning gas issue.

Adudeuknow,

Double action shooting would be a bunch faster than your 45-70. I already have a guide gun. Don't get me wrong, I love it. But this gun would be one that nobody else would have but me!

How about a pump version. I've found a pump is a little faster than a lever-gun, and it would obviously not have the forearm-shredding cylinder-gap issues the revolver carbine would have. I, too, will stick with my Marlin 45-70. I sympathize with the desire for a one of a kind firearm, but sometimes no one else has one because they don't make sense mechanically/functionally. Good Luck.

I wonder if there is a market for such a gun. I would buy one, it seems like it could be a dandy brush gun or guide gun.

Dave Nash Note: Smith357's message above was accompanied and illustrated by a wonderful thumbnail that I am including below as my Attachment 01: Smith .357 X-Frame Carbine

The design looks cool, but what happens to the part of your forearm that is below the barrel/cylinder gap when you light one off? Steel sleeves may be advisable given the pressures at which these guns operate. Or maybe you shoot these things with a bipod or a sling loop around a tree. (But watch for flying bark!)

I have always been leery of revolving rifles or long-barrel revolvers with detachable stocks. The consequences of chain fire in percussion revolvers pretty much doomed the design. While I don't expect chain fire in cartridge revolvers, you can't ignore the high-pressure gases in the X-frame models.

DCW is right about that design; I would not be too keen on picking powder particles, etc. out of my forearm.

The idea is old and has never been popular.

Revolver rifle ...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!

Burn the %&*@ out of your left hand if you put it over the cylinder, which is VERY easy to do with a revolver rifle. There are some foreign repros made, and they don't sell well.

Welcome to the board!

Not a good idea. The cylinder air gap will cut thru your wrist.

Guys, the idea with the originals and reproductions is to hold onto the wrist of the stock with your off hand for stabilization. And no they did not sell well but they were an innovative repeating long gun in the days before inventions like the volcanic or self contained metal cartridge.
Personally, I do not think he has that bad of an idea. The main reason that the reproductions don't sell well is because they are basically a SAA.
A modern magnum design with a swing out cylinder and adjustable sights would be no more impractical than some of the pistol caliber carbines currently on the market.
Give the guy a break.

I still don't think it's a good idea. No matter how many warnings they put in the owners manual SOMEBODY would manage to lose a finger or two, and sue.

Also, with the at least 16" Bbl. (legal minimum) it would have to have it would be very awkward to shoot.

I have a replica 1860 Colt Army with detachable stock. It works fairly well, but of course being a BP frontloader can have a much shorter Bbl.

You mean something like this?

YouTube - Keep your fingers away from the cylinder edge...

I have always wanted one of these...

Knight Armament's Revolver Rifle

I'd load with the heaviest pointed bullet I could get to around 920fps and have a blast. Would be great for hunting boar where legal.

I think if S&W brought out a 44Mag revolver rifle with an 18 to 20" barrel, they could sell all they could make.

It should be simple to design a deflector to keep the cylinder gap gas from hitting the arm of the shooter.

Why not build an idiot shield into the cylinder crane and design the cylinder arm to be easily released for cleaning...It really wouldn't be that difficult and could be designed in such a way to vent the gases up instead.

It now appears that this issue may have been solved; or at least addressed in a manner that I have not seen used before. It relates directly to "forrestinmathews" "idiot shield" mentioned in the last post I have included above.

Last month at SHOT, Bob Morrison of Taurus took me over to the Rossi part of their display and showed me the introduced-at-the-show Revolving Rifle version of their amazingly successful “Judge” concept handgun.

Now, I realize that many people who contribute to this site routinely and in less-than-professional ways, express their dislike of anything not Smith & Wesson and especially anything Taurus-related. I don’t want to get into those arguments. If that’s your opinion, fine but please respect my attempt to assist the gentlemen I am “quoting” here in a technical matter and don’t flood this thread with such remarks.

I am only trying to show these people, who all recognized the very real issue presented by revolving rifles (and shotguns for that matter as they were made in the past and this new gun does accept .410 shells as well) that someone, in a production firearm, has finally seemed to address things in what appears to be a simple and (hopefully, I did not fire the weapon) successful manner. If the pictures are not clear, they literally “shield” the users’ extended arms from the blast by installing an encircling cover-like piece at the front of the cylinder. Only time will tell in regard to its performance and acceptance by the buying public but at least it's something; and something that might help to prove out the practicality of such weapons.

Advancements in technology come from all directions and I hope that my posting here is helpful in revealing at least some part of a new approach to a firearm concept that I, like many of you, find intriguing: the revolving cylinder long gun.

Please note that the photos below came from the company's materials that I obtained at the show. However, the Rossi website has been updated and contains two pages that explain the gun in detail: Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog and Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

It should be further noted that they do seem to be missing the boat by not highlighting and explaining the shielding concept; guess they didn't see it as important to explain as those quoted here might think or that Mr. Morrison obviously did when he kindly explained it to me.

Hope you find this of interest and maybe it will also spur interest in other quarters.

Dave Nash

 

[petemacmahon]

Don't pay attention to all the nay sayers

...in .357 mag
with an 18" octagon barrel
edit:first post!

I was the one that started a similar thread for a X frame revolving 460. To me it had enough merit to ask the custom shop and a few of the top smiths if they would be interested. Nobody took me up. But to my chagrin, Taurus appears to have beat S&W to the market:

Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

And my local shop already has two on order already. Price is 495.

------------------------------
Oh, I posted this b4 I read page two and saw Dave Nash's excellent post. But dave, where did you get that picture of the the S&W rifle? Scan arms is all in German, can't get much out of that site.
------------
I'm going to ask my local shop owner to ask the person who has one on order now if I can see it when it comes in and maybe even (If I buy him a box of ammo) let me put a few rounds down range to test it out.

I'll report back.

 

[Dave Nash]

I was the one that started a similar thread for a X frame revolving 460. To me it had enough merit to ask the custom shop and a few of the top smiths if they would be interested. Nobody took me up. But to my chagrin, Taurus appears to have beat S&W to the market:

Rossi 2010 What's New Catalog

And my local shop already has two on order already. Price is 495.

------------------------------
Oh, I posted this b4 I read page two and saw Dave Nash's excellent post. But dave, where did you get that picture of the the S&W rifle? Scan arms is all in German, can't get much out of that site.
------------
I'm going to ask my local shop owner to ask the person who has one on order now if I can see it when it comes in and maybe even (If I buy him a box of ammo) let me put a few rounds down range to test it out.

I'll report back.

“petemacmahon”

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you; I have been busy.

The ScanArms ad image taken from “Qball’s” original posting might be a bit dated. I’m not sure of their current status and much of what you might find of theirs would (I think) be in Swedish although the reproduced ad indicates a tie with Frankonia who acquired Wischo some time ago.

Wischo used to do all kinds of things with Smith. Everything from stock guns with nothing more than the words “Target Champion” etched or engraved on the side to all-out special order pieces that never saw the light of day in the U.S. They did other things too with Smith and unrelated to this topic, they were the ones who sold off a good number of the left over Model 19-P’s into the European continent.

Although a while back I thought I saw a press release indicating that Wischo was now considered to be the wholesale arm of Frankonia's business, I am not sure what Frankonia’s relationship is with S&W. I have also seen references to a company called "Waimex" that might be what Wischo once was in regard to be a specialty Smith outlet. Confusing to say the least; although Waimex is now listed as the S&W's German Distributor on their (S&W's) website.

In any case, the stocked gun in that picture could have been done on either side of the pond and I am checking into whether or not it was done here. My feeling at this point (and I will get back to you if and when I hear something) is that it probably wasn’t simply because of all the issues involved.

For if it clearly can’t be shown that such a gun started out as a rifle, it is a nightmare to deal with in regard to the paperwork. And even making something here, for sale over there, that wouldn’t be sold here, can be procedurally problematic; both in theory (paperwork) and in practice [actual items floating around that can shipped to the wrong place in error or that can be “reimported” (a polite term) in violation of the law].

I realize that T/C (now a part of S&W) went to the Supreme Court on a somewhat related (but perhaps not truly applicable) matter and won but is it worth it in small numbers, probably not. For example, back in the 90’s when T/C (not yet affiliated with S&W) was already involved with outright stocked handguns in Europe (as was Dan Wesson, I think), Smith & Wesson still had the tooling on hand for the shoulder stocks for their 37mm gas launchers, which were basically breaktop non-gun N-Frames with a slightly different way of fitting things to the grip frame. The tooling, the stocks and/or the guns themselves could have been modified to make a shoulder stock for the conventional N-Frame revolvers that were being sold overseas BUT it was felt that for the volumes involved, the chances for something going askew were just not worth it. And I don’t blame them.

However, when you make something as a real model for sale in the larger US market, then guns can be built from the ground up as rifles/long guns and these issues can be sidestepped as long as you are also building things in a way where conversion into something illegal cannot be easily accomplished. I didn’t spend a lot of time with the gun but it didn’t seem like that would be a problem with the Taurus. And for all that people on this site say about them, it should be recognized that they are a big enough and a professional enough company to not go looking for trouble in such a manner. Also note that I am not an attorney nor am I offering legal advice in regard to the NFA. I neither wish to be quoted as an expert (or even correct) in these matters nor do I wish to be dragged into an endless discussion about what can and can't be done legally.

As to your looking at the one already on order at your local gun shop, I can tell you that the samples I handled at SHOT (I handled two and we must remember that they were show samples) were nicely fitted and finished and the actions felt good. If that continues with the production guns, the one you see should be pretty neat. I have long thought the revolving rifle was an intriguing concept and I think that this could turn out to be a real fun gun. And looking at the number of people who have taken the time to read the various postings regarding this concept on this site, hopefully once it becomes available, they will think so too.

Finally, the image of the Smith “rifle” you asked about was credited in my original posting to “Smith357” as he had included it along with the piece that I quoted from him.

Dave Nash

 

[H Richard]

See this months issue of the American Rifleman. New in 2010 is Taurus 45 Colt/410 Bore Circuit Judge Carbine.

 

[NE450No2]

Well, now that Taurus is making the "Revolver Rifle Judge", S&W is Crazy if they do not make a 44 Mag, 460 Mag, and a 500 Mag Revolver Rifle...

With 18" barrels...

They would sell THOUSANDS of them....

They should all be steel framed, with iron sights, and built in scope mounts... Scope mounts that you do not have to remove the rear sight to mount the scope...

They would sell THOUSANDS of them...

THOUSANDS I SAY...