I am a HUGE S&W fan and own few others, however anything built by man can wear out. I read an article by a well known writer who shot a K-22 for 30,000 rounds and he stated it was all but worn out. I know on most self loaders, 5,000 rounds is the point it should be rebuilt. What is the forums take on Smith double actions. I know it depends on caliber and load used, but is there a rule of thumb?
Round count and wear
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diamonback68
US Veteran
In my opinion, that "well known writer" did something wrong.
Revolver-time
Member
I tend to shoot lower pressure rounds like 44 special and 45 colt, so I am probably not qualified to answer with any authority. But, I do have over 10k rounds in a Taurus 1911 and at least 12k rounds in a Browning 22 rifle. Guns that I intend to shoot frequently I used lead not jacketed bullets.
diamonback68
US Veteran
In my opinion, that "well known writer" did something wrong.
The 22LR is certainly not a high pressure, high recoil round. There has got to be more to it than he is telling than just making a simple statement that it was worn out. I suspect said writer was trying to see how fast he could burn up 30,000 rounds of ammo or something. That is not normal shooting. I have never seen a worn out K22, has anyone else?
I agree with one of the other posters. I seriously doubt 30k rounds of ammo would wear out a K-22. My 17-4 has a least 5k rounds through it and has no signs of wear in the insides or the bore. I think with appropriate care and cleaning you could shoot these guns for a life time and still give it to a grandchild to shoot. FYI 30k rounds of CCI standard velocity would cost about 1428 dollars if bought by the 5000 round case.
Dragon88
Member
30k rounds of 22lr is not a lot of wear and tear on a well-built gun like a K22. If we were talking 30k rounds of 10mm or full-power 44 Mags, I might give you that one.
Also, who says an autoloader needs to be rebuilt every 5,000 rounds? I certainly don't. You should replace the recoil spring in that period, but certainly nothing approaching a "rebuild" on most well-made semi-autos. This is of course excluding reliability reducing modifications like super light 1911 triggers where the hammer hooks have been filed to almost nothing.
Also, who says an autoloader needs to be rebuilt every 5,000 rounds? I certainly don't. You should replace the recoil spring in that period, but certainly nothing approaching a "rebuild" on most well-made semi-autos. This is of course excluding reliability reducing modifications like super light 1911 triggers where the hammer hooks have been filed to almost nothing.
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TSQUARED
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I have yet to see a K-22 "worn out". I have not kept a round count on my old K-22 but my 2 year old S&W617 has passed 12,000 rounds without anyissues.
I also doubt that most semi auto's wear out after 5000 rounds - mine certainly have not. I shoot a lot of 9mm and 45 ACP target loads in my semi autos and mild 38 Special loads in my 357 Marnum revolvers - going on 25,000 in two of them.
I also doubt that most semi auto's wear out after 5000 rounds - mine certainly have not. I shoot a lot of 9mm and 45 ACP target loads in my semi autos and mild 38 Special loads in my 357 Marnum revolvers - going on 25,000 in two of them.
I do recall that some Remington nylon 66 rifles were shot many thousands of rounds in some sort of endurance test or shooting record back in the 60's so I am not challenging the writer of his due.
As for the K22 being worn out at 30,000 rounds, Perhaps it was, after all it is a just mechanical pieces of steel. Just because it says Smith and Wesson on the side does not make it infallible.
Still the actual story sounds like guff to me. Does the writer cite any documentation other than his own written word? Did he send the K22 back to the factory for their opinion? After all he made a very strong statement saying it was all but worn out, sounds to me like he would want the factory to verify his his claim thus making him an "expert writer".
Terry
As for the K22 being worn out at 30,000 rounds, Perhaps it was, after all it is a just mechanical pieces of steel. Just because it says Smith and Wesson on the side does not make it infallible.
Still the actual story sounds like guff to me. Does the writer cite any documentation other than his own written word? Did he send the K22 back to the factory for their opinion? After all he made a very strong statement saying it was all but worn out, sounds to me like he would want the factory to verify his his claim thus making him an "expert writer".
Terry
john traveler
Member
It's been a at least a generation since I took anything claimed by "gun writers" as facts rather than opinions. It borders on fantasy that a well-made .22 handgun is worn out at 30,000 rounds.
Back when I used to shoot PPC, I fired a documented (primer count) 50,000 rounds per year through my M19 revolver. After several years of this heavy use, I accuracy tested it using a Ransom rest and it proved as accurate as it did when new. How is that for durability?
Back when I used to shoot PPC, I fired a documented (primer count) 50,000 rounds per year through my M19 revolver. After several years of this heavy use, I accuracy tested it using a Ransom rest and it proved as accurate as it did when new. How is that for durability?
Three years ago, I think, I set out to shoot 36,000 rounds through my 617-6 10 shot...I made it to 30,000 rounds and quit. Shooting 500 rounds every Sat & Sun is not condusive to a happy home life. Anyway that revolver is so over built that I doubt you could shoot one "out" in your lifetime.
During that marathon I do remember that about every 7,000 rounds I had to reset the sights as the vibration would drift them off.
If anything lots of shooting improves the trigger of the gun and makes you a better shot, though to much shooting will burn you out.
During that marathon I do remember that about every 7,000 rounds I had to reset the sights as the vibration would drift them off.
If anything lots of shooting improves the trigger of the gun and makes you a better shot, though to much shooting will burn you out.
rburg
Member
Conventional wisdom is a M10/M&P will need a tune up around 100,000 rounds. I've seen that figure mentioned fairly frequently and it sounds like a good benchmark to me. Surely some will encounter a failure before that (but not mean the end of the gun, just some required repair). And I'm just as sure some will easily surpass it and keep on shooting.
Back in the 1990s, when S&W forum was just a twinkle in someone's eye, we had usenet and rec.guns. A poster there was doing a project to wear one out. It had gone well past 100,000 rounds and was still in spec and shooting just fine. I forget his handle, but it might have been Pluspea from up in MN.
Keep in mind that ammo is much more expensive than wear and tear on a quality firearm. Here in the US where guns are easy to obtain, there isn't much reason to put that kind of usage on a single gun. We're spoiled and often find another gun to vent our frustrations on before we really burn one up. The most common thing that kills a firearm is abuse. We destroy the finish by carrying it in a holster (carry does no harm, it bringing it out and putting it back that takes finish off.) An even worse abuse is lack of lubricant. Not much is required, those of us who do lubricate our guns usually over do the process. Corrosion will also kill a gun in shot order. Round count isn't an issue.
A fine gun like a K22, if kept smeared with oil and transported in a gun rug, and cleaned after use, won't show any wear at all. I had a K22 that I bought with my gambling winnings back in the early 70s. I won the money on an office pool based on the score of a World Series game. I think I paid $72 for it at a local discount house. The guy across the hall from our apartment was a cop. He liked guns a bunch, and would often come over (or invite me over there) about every evening. On weekends we'd go shooting. One day of shooting was measured as a brick of ammo each. My father in law would often slip me a brick of ammo to burn, just to help finance my shooting. He had cases of it in his basement!
The best measure I've seen for round count in a 22 is the ejector rod. It doesn't take many rounds (like maybe 10,000) to remove almost all traces of blue. The rest of a gun, if cared for, still looks nearly new.
In my sordid past there have been gun writers who's words you could take to the bank. No more. When I read some of their drivel that I know from experience is wrong, I just ignore them and all else they write. The only thing that wears out on a K22 is the writers credibility.
Back in the 1990s, when S&W forum was just a twinkle in someone's eye, we had usenet and rec.guns. A poster there was doing a project to wear one out. It had gone well past 100,000 rounds and was still in spec and shooting just fine. I forget his handle, but it might have been Pluspea from up in MN.
Keep in mind that ammo is much more expensive than wear and tear on a quality firearm. Here in the US where guns are easy to obtain, there isn't much reason to put that kind of usage on a single gun. We're spoiled and often find another gun to vent our frustrations on before we really burn one up. The most common thing that kills a firearm is abuse. We destroy the finish by carrying it in a holster (carry does no harm, it bringing it out and putting it back that takes finish off.) An even worse abuse is lack of lubricant. Not much is required, those of us who do lubricate our guns usually over do the process. Corrosion will also kill a gun in shot order. Round count isn't an issue.
A fine gun like a K22, if kept smeared with oil and transported in a gun rug, and cleaned after use, won't show any wear at all. I had a K22 that I bought with my gambling winnings back in the early 70s. I won the money on an office pool based on the score of a World Series game. I think I paid $72 for it at a local discount house. The guy across the hall from our apartment was a cop. He liked guns a bunch, and would often come over (or invite me over there) about every evening. On weekends we'd go shooting. One day of shooting was measured as a brick of ammo each. My father in law would often slip me a brick of ammo to burn, just to help finance my shooting. He had cases of it in his basement!
The best measure I've seen for round count in a 22 is the ejector rod. It doesn't take many rounds (like maybe 10,000) to remove almost all traces of blue. The rest of a gun, if cared for, still looks nearly new.
In my sordid past there have been gun writers who's words you could take to the bank. No more. When I read some of their drivel that I know from experience is wrong, I just ignore them and all else they write. The only thing that wears out on a K22 is the writers credibility.
papajohn428
Member
I've been fortunate to have the money, time and opportunity to do a lot of shooting over the years, and instead of buying a lot of new guns I just shot the ones I had at the time. I put 46,700 rounds of hot handloaded ammo through a 686 over several years, it had to be retimed twice but it was still quite serviceable when I traded it off. My Browning Buckmark has WELL over 100K rounds through it, more like 130K by now, and aside from a few sets of springs, it's never needed anything but oil and a good bath every brick or two. I have an EAA Witness in 40S&W with close to 47,000 rounds through it, none of them mild, and the gun shows no signs of wearing out.
I don't know who the writer who said that was, but I doubt he'll be getting paid to write drivel like that for very long.
I don't know who the writer who said that was, but I doubt he'll be getting paid to write drivel like that for very long.
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
The article is written by J.D. Jones and is in the March/April issue of American Handgunner, in his handgun hunting column. 30,000 rounds in 3 months, "fast double action." "In less than six months the Combat was about done for."
I bought my Model 18 new in the mid 1970's and it has more rounds through it than any gun I own, easily way more than 30,000. It sure isn't about done for.
I bought my Model 18 new in the mid 1970's and it has more rounds through it than any gun I own, easily way more than 30,000. It sure isn't about done for.
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David LaPell
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In 1934 when they were making up the .357 Magnum, Doug Wesson had 9,000 rounds of the new "experimental" cartridge which was a 158 grain bullet moving at 1,500 fps plus and 18,000 rounds of .38-44 Hi Speed ammo fired through an Outdoorsman revolver. The experimental ammo had a PSI of something like 45,000. The revolver was no worse for wear at the end of the test and the experimental round became the .357 Magnum. If they could not do that and kill a .38-44 in 1934, I certainly dont see a K22 getting taken down by .22 ammo. I think that writer was sniffing too much ink.
williamlayton
Member
In a Semi a barrel change is easy---but for the life of me I don't think you can shoot out a barrel in .38's or .45's --least wise I won't be around long enough to do it if I have not done it by now.
Blessings
Blessings
papajohn428
Member
In other words, he abused it.
old&slow
Member
Don't think I have a firearm with 30k rounds thru it.
But, I have a Colt Woodsman Match Target from the 70's that probably has 15K + thru it.. A 1911 built for me by Les Baer in the late 80's that probably has had 10 to 15 thousand rds. thru it. And a Ruger 10/22 that I've had since a teenager that has had a boat load of .22's thru it. And if you can shoot a better group than any of these guns are cabable of ,, you are a heck of a lot better shot than I am..
I've read where some of the top handgun shooters can start to notice a Little less accuracy at the 30K to 50K range.
But, I doubt I'll ever be that good.
But, I have a Colt Woodsman Match Target from the 70's that probably has 15K + thru it.. A 1911 built for me by Les Baer in the late 80's that probably has had 10 to 15 thousand rds. thru it. And a Ruger 10/22 that I've had since a teenager that has had a boat load of .22's thru it. And if you can shoot a better group than any of these guns are cabable of ,, you are a heck of a lot better shot than I am..
I've read where some of the top handgun shooters can start to notice a Little less accuracy at the 30K to 50K range.
But, I doubt I'll ever be that good.
jt1
Member
At one point in my life, I was on a mission to destroy every bowling pin I could find. The weapon of choice was a Model of 1989 625. At that time, the only way I kept up with how much I shot was by how many sleeves of primers I bought. However, I'm certain that 625 has over 25K rounds thru it, and probably over 30K. All of them were up in the +p category. The 625 had an action job and regular cleaning and lubrication, and today it's still tight, times and carries up perfectly. The only sign of the round count is a significant turn line.
John
John
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