S and W 39 history questions

[rogo123]

Did the model 39 ever participate in any US military trials? If so, how did it perform?
Did the Illinois State Police use Federal 9BPLE in the model 39, or only in the steel frame guns?
Why were the first 39s issued to the ISP in flap holsters?

 

[stansdds]

The S&W Model 39 was the product of U.S. Army pistol trials. After World War II and with the formation of NATO, there was a push to standardize weapons calibers. The U.S. Army was impressed by the German P-38 DA/SA 9mm pistol and felt a pistol that was shorter and lighter in weight than the M1911-A1 and chambered in 9x19mm would be a good idea. S&W took the challenge and developed a pistol featuring a 4 inch barrel, chambered in 9x19, and utilized an aluminum alloy receiver. The pistols did well, but the U.S. Army decided that with all the M1911-A1's and 45 ACP ammo they had stockpiled after World War II, it was not a fiscally good idea to start buying a new pistol and new ammo. Without the prospect of a military purchase contract, S&W sold their pistol as the Model 39 to civilians and then to law enforcement markets.


Steel frame Model 39's were not produced in particularly high numbers. As far as I know, the ISP only used the more common aluminum receiver pistols.

 

[rogerwnuss]

A friend had a steel frame back in the late 80s, early 90s, sold it for what seemed to me outrageous money even then. Don't even remember how much,just that I recall thinking you could buy four or five regular 39-2s with it....

 

[murphydog]

Have a look at this post from member ispcapt (no fair guessing his previous occupation):

A 39 question fpr the Captain and other ISP folks

He has posted about the model 39 in service use in IL, search through his other posts.

 

[ispcapt]

Did the Illinois State Police use Federal 9BPLE in the model 39, or only in the steel frame guns?

The ISP never issued any steel frames.
I don't recall exactly when the BPLE was issued. In 1980 after a shooting involving the 115 Silvertip we went to the Federal BP round. We carried that for a short time until the BPLE was developed. Then in 1981 we went to the 439. I don't recall if we were issued the BPLE when we got the 439 or just after. Around the same time.

Why were the first 39s issued to the ISP in flap holsters?

There are several advantages to the crossdraw and the flap.
The flap was for retention. At that time there wasn't the thumb break in that style, usually a strap.
When seated in a squad a crossdraw is easier to deploy and it made it easier for weapon retention. With the seatbelt, radio console, etc, the crossdraw got the gun out of all that.
The crossdraw was worn just to the left of the belt buckle in front of the hip. This made for a very quick draw particularly when addressing a violator from the interview stance. The butt of the gun was right at your hand and as soon as you cleared leather you were on target.
Another advantage of the crossdraw it made the gun more easily accessible with either hand. A strong side with belt keepers or velcro belt to draw with the off hand can look like someone dancing with a mouse in their pants.
In the mid 70s one of our Troops was walking up to a car when the driver poked a .25 out the window and shot the Troop in the right shoulder. The round hit a nerve which limited the use of his strong arm. He was able to quickly draw with his off side hand and return fire.

 

[SmithNut]

Hello,
I recently purchased a very nice Illinois State Police M39. It came in a 2 piece blue box (period correct) that has no end label.
Was wondering if anyone knows how the guns were shipped to the ISP, were they in bulk? Were they in blue boxes, and if so did they have the typical S&W label of the time.
The box my gun came in, while it has no label, it has date codes stamped on the inside of the box top in red ink. There is a date code stamp from an old office date tool from back in the day, the date is May 30, 1979, and someone used a red pencil type marker writing 3/6/78 as well.
I'm curious to know if S&W shipped the M39's in bulk in blue boxes but without taking the time to put individual labels on each box as we see on commercial guns.
Here's a pic of the box top stamping:

Thanks, in advance....

 

[ispcapt]

I don't recall the boxes, color, or labels. Too many years ago. PJO1425 might remember.
They would have been shipped to our main range which at the time was on the NE corner of the IL State Fairgrounds, north side of Springfield.
With those date stamps most likely that gun would have been issued to a Trooper in about Cadet Class 57 or 58. No way of telling which Trooper as those records were long ago destroyed.
However, if the gun does not exhibit any wear then it's likely it was either sent to a district HQ as a spare or kept at the range and never issued.

 

[SmithNut]

I don't recall the boxes, color, or labels. Too many years ago. PJO1425 might remember.
They would have been shipped to our main range which at the time was on the NE corner of the IL State Fairgrounds, north side of Springfield.
With those date stamps most likely that gun would have been issued to a Trooper in about Cadet Class 57 or 58. No way of telling which Trooper as those records were long ago destroyed.
However, if the gun does not exhibit any wear then it's likely it was either sent to a district HQ as a spare or kept at the range and never issued.

Thank you!
I believe this one was probably a spare, it does not look like it saw any service or use....

 

[ispcapt]

Thank you!
I believe this one was probably a spare, it does not look like it saw any service or use....

That one definitely hasn't been carried. First place to show wear was the edge of the dust cover in front of the trigger guard. If not refinished that one was probably a district spare.
Now the date on the box has me wondering that it's not an issue date. By 1978 we were issuing 39-2. I'm thinking those dates might have been written/stamped during a district inventory.
The serial number on yours his lower than my 39 but my inventory stamped number is lower than yours. My inventory number is about 225 lower. They were both probably shipped at the same time or close to the same. The inventory numbers would have been stamped when received
Very nice gun.

 

[Engine49guy]

While the pics are a bit blurry when zoomed in a few things standout,

A) it has the old ampersands, slide stop notch cut and barrel bushing.
B) no "A" Serial prefix and marked Model 39.
But..
C) hammer has no hole and it has the later style mag release button which suggests they were either replaced or its actually a 39-2.

Now wondering, if it has no "A" Serial prefix and no hole in the hammer which style ejector does it have?
Can you post a right side pic?

 

[gmborkovic]

Mr. Brad, you have the eye of an eagle. My old foggy orbs can see Model-39
85647. The hammer? Work bench switch out. For some reason. Im trying to make out the de-cocker. Racetrack?

 

[gmborkovic]

Mr. Brad, you have the eye of an eagle. My old foggy orbs can see Model-39
85647. The hammer? Work bench switch out. For some reason. Im trying to make out the de-cocker. Racetrack?

 

[Engine49guy]

The safety decock lever appears correct style but would need to see the spacing looking down from above to be sure,
IIRC the racetrack style doesn't appear until the early 80's but the spacing changed in the early 70's so the lever would work on the Model 59 without relief cuts to the 59 frame.
I'm wondering if a dept armorer fit a new hammer and magazine release button in the mid 70's to what appears to be otherwise a 60's gun,

 

[SmithNut]

Here's a few more pics....

Maybe these will help ID this pistol....

Thanks, in advance.....

 

[Ameshawki]

Full flap holster made by Service Mfg of Younkers, NY. I have a left hand version. Been searching for a right hand for years and have never found one.

 

[Engine49guy]

The slide and extractor are correct ,
Btw those two piece ISP extractors are very interesting.
The safety lever is kinda hard to tell but it kinda looks like it is the wider spaced mid 70's version that will clear the wider 59 frame but I'm not 100% sure, if you have an early 39-2 or another 39 no dash compare the safety lever spacing to this one.

Ps. Are the magazine followers the old style metal figure 8 or are they the newer black plastic style?

 

[SmithNut]

The slide and extractor are correct ,
Btw those two piece ISP extractors are very interesting.
The safety lever is kinda hard to tell but it kinda looks like it is the wider spaced mid 70's version that will clear the wider 59 frame but I'm not 100% sure, if you have an early 39-2 or another 39 no dash compare the safety lever spacing to this one.

Ps. Are the magazine followers the old style metal figure 8 or are they the newer black plastic style?

Thanks for the information....

The magazines that came with it look New/Unfired, but are the newer black plastic style, would those be proper for this M39?

Question, do you think the box that I show the date codes look correct?

Thanks again appreciate your input on this piece...

 

[gmborkovic]

Brad, if you look at the last pic of the left side, you can see the relief cut
under the lever. Also does not appear to be a racetrack example.

 

[gmborkovic]

Brad, if you look at the last pic of the left side, you can see the relief cut
under the lever. Also does not appear to be a racetrack example.

 

[Engine49guy]

The relief cut under the safety definitely shows its a mid 70"s replacement,

Can you post a pic of the box cover?
Does it have the solid border or the newer rope style?
I don't know anything about the date stamps inside the box but if I had to venture a guess if the box is solid border the gun was sent back to SW in that box for repair and or refinish and the dates inside are when it was received (78) and when they did the repairs May 79, again I'm just guessing here.
If the box has the rope border on the lid my bet is that it was returned from the factory in the then current style blue box of 78/79.
The magazines black plastic followers are from the 70's so hint that maybe they were provided from the factory with the gun when it was returned.

My closest Model 39 is Serial 68490 that shipped Oct 1966 so I'd guess your gun dates to about 68-69.

On a side note as an after thought I'd bet the stocks were replaced in 78/79 as well because if the lighter colored wood, the 60's guns usually have darker stocks.