S&W 1 1/2 caliber

[rta72]

Hey,

My knowledge of antique calibers is not as good as i would want it to be. That said, I just bought a SW 1 1/2 first issue revolver and said to my self, ok it's a 32 RF. Then i start browsing the web and i see reload kits for 32 short rf and 32 long rf. Is one of these the same that sw model 1 1/2 uses or something different?

This is my first antique firearm and i wanted to start collecting them for a long time. For now i've only had modern pistols, revolvers and rifles. Uberti replica of Remington 1858 and Smith & Wesson has been in my safe for some time in the form of a 686-3 and mp-15 2, but these antiques are truly fascinating.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Jaxenro]

Is it a tip up? Not a top break correct?

Far as I know that would be 32 short for the first model and maybe 32 long for the second although that would shoot shorts as well but someone more knowledgeable will probably chime in

 

[rta72]

Tip up, yes thats correct. I faintly also remember reading from somewhere that 1st model is 32 short rf and 2nd 32 long rf. Of course I can't find that site anywhere. ��

 

[glowe]

Welcome to the Forum. The Model 1 was 22 RF and the Model 1 1/2 and Model 2 were chambered in 32 RF Long. Both fire either Long or short, but S&W never made a revolver in 32 Short only.

 

[gmborkovic]

hold de phone a moment Gladis! Im an old CF reload and shooter kind of guy. Somebody please tell me how in the heck you reload rim fire ammo?
Sorry, Im a Neanderthal.

 

[Jaxenro]

Never done it but I think the current kits use a special cartridge, a 22 rimfire blank, black powder, and a round lead ball

 

[glowe]

They are expensive, and made with heavy brass and a cut-out in the base to insert a 22 blank. The round is then loaded with Black Powder and a LRN to fire.

There are, however, issues here. First of all, the 32 RF cartridge was a heeled bullet, meaning the bullet was the same diameter as the case. When you use the re-loadable brass, you also have to buy their bullets and they are expensive as well. If you use a standard bullet, it will have to be small enough to fit inside the case. Results of using the smaller diameter bullets readily available is that it will rattle down the barrel and give poor accuracy. If you buy brass alone, it will cost $6 per case. Proper heeled lead bullets will cost $15 for 25 bullets. Round ball can be used, but they are also smaller than required to contact the rifling.

Second issue is that you have to insert the loaded cartridges just right in each chamber so the 22 blank will align with the firing pin on the gun. Almost guaranteed to have a few duds until you rotate the brass to get proper firing pin strikes.

 

[rta72]

Hey,

Thanks for the good insight.

http://www.hc-collection.com/Mobile/32-rf-c102x335271

This is the one that got me thinking. They have sets for 32 RF short and long. But in the #1 1/2 it would be long set right?

As glowe said, they use offset 22 blank in a specially made brass case. Rather expensive, I agree, but the other methods I found online were a bit more tricky to produce and in the end might end up costing almost as much. It's great that there are sets like this out for the people who want to enjoy shooting obsolete cartridges.

 

[rta72]

Gun has serial 127xx and I thought that the barrel has been swapped as it had number 50 stamped on it. But then I took the grips of and also on the grip frame was 50. Must be instead a some sort of assembly line identification number rather than last two digits of serial no.?

Quality seems excellent, allthough im no expert on antique firearms.

 

[glowe]

The early S&Ws used assembly numbers to identify major parts during manufacture. They could be letters or numbers. As for not being an expert on tip-up revolvers, there are a few things you can inspect. Check for any cracks anywhere on the cylinder or barrel. Check the hinge and lower latch to be sure the gun will not open upon firing and that the hinge is intact and has little or no play. Hold the barrel and frame then try to open the barrel without using the latch. Moderate pressure should be enough to make sure the barrel latch is holding.

The gun should be cocked and the cylinder should be locked in battery by the cylinder stop, and should work the same on all chambers. If the hand does not push the cylinder far enough to lock into battery, your gun is out of time and needs adjustment before use. Lastly, thouroughly clean the gun, including taking off the sideplate and flushing the mechanism with Choke-&-Carb or brake cleaner using s toothbrush, then flush again. Lubricate and you should be ready to go. Some gunsmiths might check the gun over for you, but you will probably not find any that will say the gun is safe to shoot, since most have never looked at a S&W Tip-Up plus have liability issues to worry about.

Your gun would have most likely shipped in late 1865 or early 1866.

 

[first-model]

The early S&Ws used assembly numbers to identify major parts during manufacture. They could be letters or numbers. As for not being an expert on tip-up revolvers, there are a few things you can inspect. Check for any cracks anywhere on the cylinder or barrel. Check the hinge and lower latch to be sure the gun will not open upon firing and that the hinge is intact and has little or no play. Hold the barrel and frame then try to open the barrel without using the latch. Moderate pressure should be enough to make sure the barrel latch is holding.

The gun should be cocked and the cylinder should be locked in battery by the cylinder stop, and should work the same on all chambers. If the hand does not push the cylinder far enough to lock into battery, your gun is out of time and needs adjustment before use. Lastly, thouroughly clean the gun, including taking off the sideplate and flushing the mechanism with Choke-&-Carb or brake cleaner using s toothbrush, then flush again. Lubricate and you should be ready to go. Some gunsmiths might check the gun over for you, but you will probably not find any that will say the gun is safe to shoot, since most have never looked at a S&W Tip-Up plus have liability issues to worry about.

Your gun would have most likely shipped in late 1865 or early 1866.

I agree with everything that Gary said. With tip-up revolvers, the weak spots are the hinge and the barrel catch. The hinge should have absolutely no side play, and the catch should engage crisply and positively.

That said, I wouldn't shoot a tip-up. Many others will disagree with me on this ... but exposing a 150 year old gun to ballistic pressures does nothing to preserve them, and everything to accelerate their wear and tear, not to mention the risk of a catastrophic failure. I know a lot of people disagree with me on this, but as a conservationist and historian I place a high value on maintaining these artifacts for future generations. Yes, I probably rob myself of a fun experience, but it wouldn't be much fun if I caused irreversible damage to such an important piece of history.

Just my $0.02 ...

Mike

 

[rta72]

Thank you for the tips.

Barrel is rock solid, does not open without using the latch and no movement sideqays on the hinge. Cylinder locks on all chambers when cocking the hammer. I still need to inspect it more thoroughly.

I understand the preserving point, but i wouldn't classify model 1 1/2 as being rare, but as a mass produced model (if the product run of 126000 pieces is correct, first and second issue) and therefore not overly conserned of destroying priceless history by shooting it with mild bp loads few times a year. I'm also unaware of working replicas of this particular model. It brings an another level of enjoyment and fascinating part to collecting antiques.

I'm also extremely interested how it has found it's way from new to old continent.

 

[glowe]

The deal with the reloadable cases is that they cannot hold as much powder as original 32 Long cartridges. Measured volume of BP in a 32 RF Long is about 14 grains. As far as I can find in references is the reloadable 32 RF case holds only about 10 grains of black powder. That is a reduction of almost 30% of powder by volume, and pressures would be extremely low. In researching these reloads, I have seen comments about stuck bullets using the reloadable brass, which would definitely pose a problem if gone unnoticed. The percentage reduction or increase in black powder loads is pretty much linear, so a reduction of 30% would yield roughly 5600 psi, given that original 32 RF Long ran around 8,000 psi.

Now to the use of dreaded smokeless powder loads in these revolvers. I have gone through probably 500 to 1000 rounds of Navy Arms 32 Long and Short ammo back when it was available without issue. Plus I have shot every one of the guns pictured below. Have about 400 rounds left, plus a goal of shooting it ALL up before I get too old to see the sights. In case people think this is foolhardy, I have chronographed both original black powder loads and Navy Arms rounds to find that, while original 32 RF Long ran about 650 fps and Shorts were about 550 fps. Navy Arms ammo ran at 532 fps for Long and 425 fps for Shorts. That is about a 20% reduction in speed, which should equate to pretty mild pressures for the Navy Arms loads.

The little No.4 Rolling Block had no visible rifling, so is relined and chambered in 32 CF Long. Shoots great now!!

 

[rta72]

I'm not sure about bullets getting stuck in barrel with 10grs of bp would be a problem. Uberti manual gives a standard load of 9 grs for a 1849 .31 pocket with a .330 rb. It's roughly the same size with 4" barrel. Of course frame is much larger and it's a "muzzleloader".

This must have been a real technolocical wonder back in the day. Cartridges, removable cylinder. Of course you can soin off the cylinder from my 1858 replica too, but still loose vs contained power...

Those are some great looking guns glowe! Where did you get those ammo boxes and pistol case if I may ask?

 

[glowe]

Thanks, the gutta-percha case came with the scarce short barrel Model 1 1/2. Case seems period, probably distributor supplied, but I think is has been relined. My factory letter states it was shipped to M. W. Robinson in New Your City, the main distributor for the company in 1875, in a shipment of 100 standard barrel length guns and 50 short barrel guns.

I bought a few cases of 32 RF from Navy Arms back in the 1990s when they imported them from South America. Thinking that they may not make too many production runs, I wanted to make sure that I had enough to shoot. Those are my last full boxes from the original purchase. I know full boxes of this stuff are selling for over $100 a box, but I want to use the ammo rather than sell it. It never ceases to be a great conversation starter at the range when I pull out a couple of Model 2 Civil War era guns to shoot. I love to let the youngsters shoot the guns. Wish someone would run a new batch of this ammo, since I know there would be a market for a new production run.

 

[cgt4570]

As for the 30% reduction in case capacity for the reloadable cartridges, couldn't this be overcome by simply using a finer grain black powder or a duplex load with FFg and some FFFg or FFFFg mixed in?

I like to shoot all my guns at least once. I haven't owned a Smith in .32 Rimfire yet, but I have put a few rounds through single shot rimfire rifles up to .41 Swiss.
I shoot my S&W Model One's occasionally with subsonic .22 CB shorts (I also put only these through my LadySmiths).
If and when I acquire a .32 Rimfire Smith, I WILL find a way to shoot it!

 

[rta72]

I'm somewhat confused with the caliber now. [emoji23]

All the reference material i have says that the gun was chambered for .32 RF short. Also cylinder lenght and the fouling rim inside the chambers would indicate .32 RF short.

I'll post some measurements as I find my caliper.

Edit: did some measuring oal of cylinder is roughly 1.19" and ref.book gives .32 RF long oal of 1.215 (.32 RF short oal 0.948"). The fouling ring is roughly somewhere around 0.59" to 0.60", so that would also correlate with case lenght of 0.575 (long case lenght 0.791").

Thats if my ref.book measurements are correct.

 

[mmaher94087]

rta72, something is wrong. I think that your reference is for CENTERFIRE cartridges not rimfire. There should not be a 'fouling rim' in the rimfire cylinder for .32 rimfire cartridges as they are "heeled" (outside diameter of the case; the bullet is not seated inside the case as are the .32 CF). Please re-check your reference.

 

[glowe]

There are lots of people out there that have no idea what they are talking about and probably never even held a Model 1 1/2 in their hands. Your issue with OAL of a 32 Long does not take into account the fact that the rim of the cartridge stays outside the chamber. The measurement you need is from the nose of the bullet to the start of the rim, not to the rear of the rim. Look at the images I attach to compare all three models of 32 RF tip-ups. They are all exactly the same length for the Model 1/12, 1st. Model 1 1/2, 2nd, and the Model 2. The cartridges shown are all factory black powder from before 1900 and the copper ones date back to the 1870s. All chamber properly in all cylinders.

 

[mmaher94087]

Gary, I love that wood sabot, shot cartridge in the mix. Second photo, second from the right. Very uncommon.