S&W 13-3 3", a Dilemma

[beanpole]

Hello all. I have gotten myself into a real pickel, and request your thoughts on whether or not I just pay up my "stupid tax" on this one or not.

For 3 years, I have been searching high and low for a 3" barrel, .357 Magnum K Frame for carry. Preferrably a blued finish (19 or 13). It has been my holy grail gun.

For 3 years, searching gun and pawn shops and gun shows all over my state, I had never seen a 3" .357 S&W. Come to think of it, I don't think I ever saw a 3" .357 in ANY make.

Until last month. There it was, a gorgeous 13-3 3", with the original box and papers as an added bonus. I picked it up, and noted the price at $500 was a little steep for my area. I checked out almost everything (will get to the item I forgot in a moment, it is key) and the only problem I noted at the time was a slightly wide b/c gap, measuring over .01". I negotiated a final price of $450, again including the box and papers. Still high considering it did need work, but I'd figured I send it in to S&W and get it adjusted. Afterall, it might be another 3 years until I'd see another, and by that time who knows what these guns would be selling for, given the price escalation of the prior 3 years.

So I bought the gun and sent it off to S&W. My heart broke when I got the repair estimate, for $250, which included replacement of the cylinder because of 3 blown charge holes.

And then I remembered - that was the ONE thing I neglected to check. Stupid. Very stupid on my part.

I contacted the seller. The good new is that he stands behind his product, and has offered me a full refund. I requested that S&W return the gun as-is, which they did. BTW, not sure how true it is, but I've heard some complain that now and then S&W, errr, finds things for fixin' that don't need fixin' .

I got it back today and examined the 3 blown charge holes. I have seen blown charge holes before (the tell tale door-ding like impression just opposite the cylinder stop notch), but even with my good vision and a pretty bright light I really didn't see any problems. Well, maybe a VERY slight waver in one of the charge holes. I guess I don't feel so bad now, even if I had checked before buying I wouldn't have seen any issues.

So here is my dilemma. I will be going to the SGK gun show in Hampton VA this weekend to drop off another gun with Matt Almeda (Revolver Armorer) for some work, and figured I may as well get his opinion on my Model 13.

But assuming a new cylinder is required, I'm looking at a pretty hefty repair bill.

So on the one hand I can return the gun for a full refund, which is certainly an attractive option. Then again, 3" S&W .357s are so rare in my area that it may well be another 3 years (maybe more) before I see another, and that's assuming that one would be acceptable. And I'd really rather not buy sight unseen. If the current price escallation in S&W revolvers continue, I wouldn't be surprised to see 3" Model 13s selling for $650, $700 or more in 3 years. Heck, 3" Model 19s are selling for around that price now. It's not like a Glock 17, where I can just go buy another tomorrow. Obviously, I have to take into account potential price inflation when making a decision, correct?

I guess part of me doesn't mind dropping $200-$250 to get this gun fixed, as $200-$250 isn't that much when looking at an entire lifetime. It is an awesome gun, with wonderful balance and handling characteristics, probably the best of all my revolvers. And I know, only I can know if this is fair or not. As they say, in a free market, a fair price is one that both parties agree to.

I'd just really appreciate hearing your thoughts. Do I pay the "stupid tax" now and end up with a wonderful, if pricey gun, or do I walk away from it and perhaps find another tomorrow for the same $$$, or maybe way more years down the road for way more $$$$$$?

 

[pred]

Seems pricey to me,
There is one on Gun broker now. Way less than 750.
They can be found, But you dont see too many at local shops or shows.
Maybe the guy will refund you 250 and you can have the work done to the example you have?
Peter

 

[pj151]

By the time it's all said and done, you have sunk 650-700 into it. It's up to you. It's a known quantity now that it has been checked out by the authority themselves. Who's to say the next one you find may not have hidden issues.

 

[bamabiker]

Welcome to the forum. If you hang around on the forum a little while and check the forum classifieds on a regular basis I believe you can find what you want. There 's been 3" 357s, (M13, M65, M66 & maybe others) for sell in the last month or so. I think there is a M13 for sell now but it's kind of pricey. Just keep checking.

 

[phils]

If it were me, I'd get my money back and keep looking.

 

[Black Knight]

If you really like the gun why not check with the seller to see if he will pay for the repair instead of a refund? Even if he goes half on the repair you would have a good gun when it is fixed. I know how difficult it can be finding a good 3" K-frame 357. My wife took my 2 1/2" 66 for her home gun so I was left with trying to find a replacement. About 2 years later I found a nice 3" 65 that is now mine.

 

[Rangerone]

If you return the gun to the seller, what is he going to do with a gun with "known issues"... He can't legally sell it now with a critical defect, for if it fails and someone is injured, he is certainly liable, not you, because you told him and got your money back. S&W isn't, they identified the defect and informed you of it.

So, your choices are a full refund and walk away, or perhaps the seller, (who is faced with the same repair bill, assuming he is truly honest and doesn't sell it to someone else) will give you a partial refund, thereby funding the repair.

 

[j38]

I would take it back, ask for a refund - and keep looking. If you have the cylinder replaced (even with help from the original seller) you don't have an original gun. Just my take on it. Put a "Want to Buy" in the classifieds here - and on other boards - and you'll find a nice one before too long.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Jerry

 

[beanpole]

I discussed a partial refund with the seller, who really wasn't interested in doing so - basically, he is one of some whom I've heard express the opinion that S&W sometimes identifies problems that aren't really problems. So it would seem that he intends to resell it as is, though I am far from certain on this. Even if the chamber aren't blown, the b/c gap is still out of spec.

Speaking of the chambers, I looked at the gun again today in bright sunlight and could not make out any damage. As I said, I've seen blown charge holes before, so I do have an idea of what to look for. I took the gun by a couple of local gunsmiths today; one said he couldn't see any problems (though admitted his eyes are getting old ), the other said that other than perhaps relatively rough finishing with a worn reamer at the factory, which he sees fairly frequently, the chambers appeared to be fine. Though both admitted they've never actually seen a blown chamber in person.

It will be interesting to here Mr. Almeda's assessment when I see him this Saturday.

In the mean time, I've posted some photos of the 3 supposedly blown chambers (the top 3 in each photo). I apologize for the photo quality, but it is the best I can do with the camera I have.

BTW, the smudge in the left most chamber in the 1st photo below is just that, a smudge. I've not had a chance to clean the gun as thoroughly as I'd like (right now there wouldn't be much of a point).

EDITED TO ADD: I just ran a dental pick around the inside of the 3 "blown" chambers, and could not detect any concave spots.

 

[BillLester]

I personally don't see anything.

 

[Gunner11]

Here's another option. I'm a shooter, not a collector, so when I couldn't find a 3" M-13 for a CCW piece I traded for a 4" M-13-2 that was well used but not abused. Bluing was worn but it was tight. It took me 2 years of checking monthly on Numrich's site but finally found a 3" bbl for $90.00, new. Sent the frame to Gander Mountain and they round-butted it for me, them I had the local gunsmithing school install the bbl and blue it. It is now one fantastic shooter and one of my first choices for CCW. Works for me, but again I'm a shooter, not a collector.

 

[j38]

Will he let you shoot it before you decide? If it shoots fine, I wouldn't worry about it. It's hard to tell there's anything wrong from the photos.

Good Luck,

Jerry

 

[srgvaz]

I discussed a partial refund with the seller, who really wasn't interested in doing so - basically, he is one of some whom I've heard express the opinion that S&W sometimes identifies problems that aren't really problems. So it would seem that he intends to resell it as is, though I am far from certain on this. Even if the chamber aren't blown, the b/c gap is still out of spec.

Speaking of the chambers, I looked at the gun again today in bright sunlight and could not make out any damage. As I said, I've seen blown charge holes before, so I do have an idea of what to look for. I took the gun by a couple of local gunsmiths today; one said he couldn't see any problems (though admitted his eyes are getting old ), the other said that other than perhaps relatively rough finishing with a worn reamer at the factory, which he sees fairly frequently, the chambers appeared to be fine. Though both admitted they've never actually seen a blown chamber in person.

It will be interesting to here Mr. Almeda's assessment when I see him this Saturday.

In the mean time, I've posted some photos of the 3 supposedly blown chambers (the top 3 in each photo). I apologize for the photo quality, but it is the best I can do with the camera I have.

BTW, the smudge in the left most chamber in the 1st photo below is just that, a smudge. I've not had a chance to clean the gun as thoroughly as I'd like (right now there wouldn't be much of a point).







I would return it and get my money back, BUT if this is your grail gun keep it and fix it. Keep in mind when you send your gun to S&W it's like getting a Ferrari serviced they do all kinds of things and charge for everything they do. Have your friend "Mr. Almeda" look it over and enjoy it life is short. If you find another in the next few years -buy it- and enjoy them both. -I would-

 

[beanpole]

I personally don't see anything.

Puzzling, isnt it? I won't pass judgement on S&W at this point, I had an excellent experience with their CS not long ago. As srgvas pointed out, S&W may well just be giving it their "Ferrari service". Maybe my cylinder is merely a Porshe Boxter in their eyes.

On Friday, I plan to shoot some of my mild handloads through the gun (3.2 grains W231 with a 148 grain wadcutter). Just a couple of cylinder fulls to check for sticky case extraction in those chambers.

And I'll of course wear safety glasses.

 

[Tom K]

Will he let you shoot it before you decide? If it shoots fine, I wouldn't worry about it. It's hard to tell there's anything wrong from the photos.

+1

Have you shot it? If not, then this is much ado about nothing. A slightly large cylinder gap may or may not have any signifigant effect, and you're not seeing any evidence of a "blown" cylinder. Shoot it and see if it functions well. If it does, keep it and use it. Unless you're one of those obsessive types where everything has to be "perfect," in which case you'll never be happy with this gun regardless.

 

[beanpole]

Have you shot it? If not, then this is much ado about nothing. A slightly large cylinder gap may or may not have any signifigant effect, and you're not seeing any evidence of a "blown" cylinder. Shoot it and see if it functions well. If it does, keep it and use it. Unless you're one of those obsessive types where everything has to be "perfect," in which case you'll never be happy with this gun regardless.

No doubt, I will be this Friday. That should give me some pretty solid answers, depending on whether or not I get sticking cases in any of those 3 chambers. I am by no means a perfectionist, many of my revolvers have some mechanical imperfection(s) of some sort (minor drag marks on a hammer or trigger, very slight endsake (< .001"), a little slop in the initial stages of the DA pull, etc).

I measured the b/c gap again on my 13, it is running between .012" and .014", which is excessive in my book. Since I'm having Matt Almeda up in Norfolk do some work on another gun, I'll at least have him turn the barrel and hopfully cut that gap in half and true it up. And he can give me a final word on the 3 "blown" chambers. Mr. Almeda is not as well known as Jim Clark or Grant Cunningham, but his work seems to be just as well respected among folks I've spoken to.

 

[kennyb]

me thinks you are going to keep that M13

 

[ken158]

Take it back - I dont believe you are looking hard enough. Come to the Roanoke or Salem gun shows and you should be able to pick up a 3incher that will make you happy. I found a 3 inch 65 last summer for $275 and the guy had 64's for $250.

 

[OLDFED]

80% of the fun is the "hunt." I'd pass and keep hunting. You NEVER know what you'll find.

 

[ENGINE18]

I'm betting you'll keep it! (wish I had one...guess I should move to Roanoke or Salem!)

 

[beanpole]

I'm betting you'll keep it! (wish I had one...guess I should move to Roanoke or Salem!)

Tell me about it. I've searched every gun and pawn shop east of I-95 in eastern NC (and gone to quite a few gun shows as far west as Raleigh) as frequently as a full time job and family will allow, and the 3" 13 I bought is the ONLY model 13 (and the only 3" 357) that I have seen in 3 years of searching.

Most used revolvers I see east of 95 in NC are either:

- S&W Model 10s
- S&W Model 29s
- Bunches of Rossi and Taurus revolvers

In the end, if the cylinder is shot, I will likely return it for a refund. If the cylinder is fine, and I only have to sink say $75 or so to fix the b/c gap, I'll likely keep it, figuring I overspent a bit for a nice 13-3 3" with the box and papers (that would be $525 all together). I love these 3" 357 round butt K frames so much, it is worth it to me - YMMV. Evens out with the great deal or two I've landed in the past.

Win some lose some. So we shall see.

80% of the fun is the "hunt."

Agreed! I've learned to have a good sized cash pile held in reserve for just such finds. I'm not hunting for anything in particular at the moment, pending the outcome of this Model 13 question. If it doesn't work out, I'll be searching again far and wide for another 3" K Frame Magnum. If it does, I'd love to happen upon a good deal on something fairly unusual, like a Model 24 in 44 Special.

 

[beanpole]

I took my Model 13 out to shoot today.

Guess what? NO extraction problems!!! I started out with 38 special standard pressure, and ended with 357 Magnum.

So it would seem that S&W was just giving it their "Ferrari treatment" afterall. Something to keep in mind when you send a gun back to S&W that is out of warranty.

I'll still have Matt Almeda take a look at it tomorrow at the Hampton VA gunshow. I've got to drop another gun off with him anyway.

 

[beanpole]

Mr. Almeda basically concurred with what everyone else thought. The chambers are a little rough (not the best reaming job S&W ever did), but overall the chambers are fine. Certainly not blown.

The b/c gap will be adjusted by turning the barrel, as it is near that point where it is likely to become a lead spitter. So overall I did overpay a bit for the gun, but I'm okay with it in this case. 3" K Frame magnums are my soft spot .

Thank you for hearing me out, I appreciate everyone's thoughtful responses, and for putting up with me venting a little frustration.

Life is good, take care.