I'm looking at picking up a 9mm to play shooting games with. No special organization I'm looking to shoot with. I'm an old 1911 guy. Wanted something a little softer shooting than my GoldCup 45, and with more rounds. Love them light 1911 triggers compared to my 4003/6 triggers. Don't think I want to go striker style. Have shot a HK and a XD/M. XD/M was much better than HK but still not good. Had heard of 2.5 lb M&P triggers after Burwell does his magic but I'm hesitant. So that leaves the 1911 styles. Was reading on Enos's forum and there were a lot of folks having trouble getting 9mm 1911's to run reliablely,not S&W's. So how do the S&W 1911's in 9mm run?????
S&W 1911 9mm reliability ???
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Have you thought about a High Power?
handgunner356
Member
It might just go back to the 1911 platform being designed for the longer more powerful round. I know most of the guys who do shoot the 40S&W in 1911 platforms usually load their rounds long, closer to 1.200". When you consider slide mass along with less bullet energy you can see where problems could arise with the 9mm. That said you are still seeing more and more of them being made in 9mm and different magazine styles being used. The original Colts' had a spacer at the rear of the mag tube to keep the rounds forward, Springfield was using a mag the held the round to the rear and had a small feedlip built into the front of the mag itself. I don't know that one was any better setup than the other.
IMHO the 1911 was designed to run 45 auto ammo and is suited very well for the job. If you want a 9mm that flows like butter and has great balance and designed for the most part by the same person that designed the 1911 then get a Hi Power.
TSQUARED
Member
I have not owned a S&W1911 in 9mm. One local person had one of the first issued and reportedly experienced reliability issues but I cannot attest to them first hand.
I owned a Springfield Armory 1911 Target in 9mm which was very reliable but would not group any better than 4 to 5 inch groups at 50 ft - more like a shotgun pattern.
I have two Dan Wesson 1911's in 9mm. The first is an early model DW Pointman without ramped barrel - it has been very accurate and reliable with round nosed ammo but experiences some feeding issues with JHP ammo.
My second is a Dan Wesson PM-9 with a ramped barrel - superbly accurate (1 inch groups at 50 ft), reliable with both JHP and RN ammo, wonderful factory trigger and sights. It has become my favorite 9mm.
I owned a Springfield Armory 1911 Target in 9mm which was very reliable but would not group any better than 4 to 5 inch groups at 50 ft - more like a shotgun pattern.
I have two Dan Wesson 1911's in 9mm. The first is an early model DW Pointman without ramped barrel - it has been very accurate and reliable with round nosed ammo but experiences some feeding issues with JHP ammo.
My second is a Dan Wesson PM-9 with a ramped barrel - superbly accurate (1 inch groups at 50 ft), reliable with both JHP and RN ammo, wonderful factory trigger and sights. It has become my favorite 9mm.
I should add that if you really want to shoot one of the nicest 9mm's ever designed you need to shoot one of the VIS Radoms. The Russians took over the plant from the Germans in 1945 and converted it to build the T33 pistol which was far inferior to the VIS built by the Polls during and before WWII. The weapon was for the most part a copy of the 1911 in 9mm. They took the best parts of the Hi Power with it's barrel lock and floating recoil spring and combined it with the ergonomics of the 1911. Even the 1911 magazine release is a direct fit. Real shame no one makes this gun today. I have four of them and they are tack drivers and never jamb.
This one was picked up out of a surrender pile in Bastogne in January of 1945. I purchased it from the vet that brought it home.
This one was picked up out of a surrender pile in Bastogne in January of 1945. I purchased it from the vet that brought it home.
wantmoresmiths
Member
Over the last few years I have really been bitten by the competition bug. I shoot IDPA, USPSA, ICORE, and steel. Right now my favorite 1911 is my Les Baer Premier II. Like you, I have been considering a 1911 in 9mm. In the 9mm 1911 field, the hot ticket seems to be the STI Trojan and the STI Spartan. My son has a Trojan, and I must admit it is a very well built, accurate, and most importantly, reliable 1911. There are a lot of people who rave about the Spartan, especially for a $600 gun. I prefer the adjustable sights and ramped barrel of the Trojan. While an accurate gun is always important, in my opinion reliability is the most important feature in a gun you will use for competition. No matter how accurate the gun, a malfunction will ruin a stage and really hurt your aggregate score. My son's Trojan has been completely reliable. Let me suggest the Brian Enos forum as a back up to this site for advice on competition shooting.
To your point regarding S&W 1911's. I am an absolute fan of Smith & Wesson revolvers, but tend to turn up my nose at their 1911's, mostly because of the external extractor. I have absolutely no experience with a S&W 1911, but I prefer to stick with the original 1911 design.
To your point regarding S&W 1911's. I am an absolute fan of Smith & Wesson revolvers, but tend to turn up my nose at their 1911's, mostly because of the external extractor. I have absolutely no experience with a S&W 1911, but I prefer to stick with the original 1911 design.
Yes have spent some time on Brians forum. Thats were I saw all the talk of Spartans not being reliable even though they were very accurate. Also seems the parts have a short life expectantcy. If I'm going to have to replace most of the parts one at a time with the agony that goes with a gun breaking in a match, then may just as well get a better gun to begin with. After 31 years of shooting my Gold Cup, about 5 years shooting "combat matches", back before they had all those initials, we just called it combat shooting, finally had the extractor break. Replaced with a Hardcore part so should be set for the rest of my life. Looking for that nice feel of a well set up single action 1911 trigger. Had thought of a HiPower but never shoot one. They do feel good in the hand, how's their accuracy? Gonna try to find a M&P with a trigger job and see how that feels.
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Beans
Member
I just picked up a S&W 1911 9 mm pro for the local IDPA matches. The weather and the Holidays have kept me from the range. I will try and get out today and give it a run.
We have a match on January 6 2012 and I want to use it in that match.
We have a match on January 6 2012 and I want to use it in that match.
Iram
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A couple months ago I picked up a S&W 1911 Pro 9mm, for IDPA ESP. Due to the cold weather, work, and holidays, I've only put 100 rounds through it, but no problems so far that weren't user-induced (grip safety...).
The slide is slightly cut down (thinner) than a 45 slide. I suspect that's partially to improve reliability with the lighter cartridge and partially due to the thinner barrel (0.45" hole vs 0.35" hole).
The barrel is ramped, with a steeper angle than any of my other 9mm handguns (3rd gen and M&Ps), but I suspect that's to better support "9mm Major" loads that some USPSA guys shoot.
The slide/frame fit is very tight. The gun is hard to disassemble and reassemble, which I think may be a side effect of how tightly it's fit together.
If you want a 9mm gun for competition*, there are better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 9mm gun for defense, there are much better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 9mm gun for a range toy, there are better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 1911 and don't want the cost/recoil of 45ACP, a 1911 in 9mm is a good option.
*Except for possibly USPSA Single Stack division.
The slide is slightly cut down (thinner) than a 45 slide. I suspect that's partially to improve reliability with the lighter cartridge and partially due to the thinner barrel (0.45" hole vs 0.35" hole).
The barrel is ramped, with a steeper angle than any of my other 9mm handguns (3rd gen and M&Ps), but I suspect that's to better support "9mm Major" loads that some USPSA guys shoot.
The slide/frame fit is very tight. The gun is hard to disassemble and reassemble, which I think may be a side effect of how tightly it's fit together.
If you want a 9mm gun for competition*, there are better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 9mm gun for defense, there are much better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 9mm gun for a range toy, there are better options than a 1911 in 9mm.
If you want a 1911 and don't want the cost/recoil of 45ACP, a 1911 in 9mm is a good option.
*Except for possibly USPSA Single Stack division.
TSQUARED
Member
A concise and accurate summary - I wish I could have stated it as succinctly.
Texas1941
Member
Like th OP I'm an old 1911 guy. Of all the 1911s I've owned, all but three have been Colts. I've never owned a Smith 1911, so I can't address them. The only competition I'm regularly involved in is bullseye and I've never used a 9mm for that, so I can't say how it would work as a competition gun.
What I can say it that if you shoot a 1911 on a regular basis, a 9mm is a very good thing to have. It will help you develop and keep those habits which make for proper trigger control. Those habits will transfer to any caliber 1911. Trigger control is key to successful shooting with any handgun, but it's everything with a 1911.
The 9mm takes recoil out of the picture, resulting in less fatigue. In general, I can shoot twice as many 9mms as 45s before things start getting shaky. This might not matter to you younger guys, but to me it's a big deal. The older I get, the more I have to train and practice just to keep from loosing ground.
As far as reliability, my series 70 GM has had no more issues than any of my 45s. Over 30 years, I've put 30K+ rounds through it and I've had to replace the extractor at about 20K rounds and the front sight last year. I replace the recoil spring and firing pin spring about every 5K. I do run a 16# spring (factory is 15#, I think), and a heavy duty firing pin spring.
Like any 1911, if you have functioning issues, the first place to look is your magazine. (This is so well known it hardly needs mentioning, but I've seem a lot of people buy themselves grief by looking there last.). I run Colt factory and Wilson magazines. They work well in my gun, but you might do just as well with others. I replace the springs in my Colt magazines when I replace the recoil spring. I haven't used the Wilsons long enough to know when they will need springs, if ever.
As far as defensive use of the pistol, the question for me is one of platform, not chambering. If you are comfortable with a 1911 in that role, then any of the three common chamberings ought to serve you well. All three have their strengths and weaknesses.
For what it's worth, I don't carry a 1911; other platforms seem better choices for my needs. But if a 9mm 1911 were to be what was available when the need arose, I would't think twice about it.
For what it's worth,
Charles
What I can say it that if you shoot a 1911 on a regular basis, a 9mm is a very good thing to have. It will help you develop and keep those habits which make for proper trigger control. Those habits will transfer to any caliber 1911. Trigger control is key to successful shooting with any handgun, but it's everything with a 1911.
The 9mm takes recoil out of the picture, resulting in less fatigue. In general, I can shoot twice as many 9mms as 45s before things start getting shaky. This might not matter to you younger guys, but to me it's a big deal. The older I get, the more I have to train and practice just to keep from loosing ground.
As far as reliability, my series 70 GM has had no more issues than any of my 45s. Over 30 years, I've put 30K+ rounds through it and I've had to replace the extractor at about 20K rounds and the front sight last year. I replace the recoil spring and firing pin spring about every 5K. I do run a 16# spring (factory is 15#, I think), and a heavy duty firing pin spring.
Like any 1911, if you have functioning issues, the first place to look is your magazine. (This is so well known it hardly needs mentioning, but I've seem a lot of people buy themselves grief by looking there last.). I run Colt factory and Wilson magazines. They work well in my gun, but you might do just as well with others. I replace the springs in my Colt magazines when I replace the recoil spring. I haven't used the Wilsons long enough to know when they will need springs, if ever.
As far as defensive use of the pistol, the question for me is one of platform, not chambering. If you are comfortable with a 1911 in that role, then any of the three common chamberings ought to serve you well. All three have their strengths and weaknesses.
For what it's worth, I don't carry a 1911; other platforms seem better choices for my needs. But if a 9mm 1911 were to be what was available when the need arose, I would't think twice about it.
For what it's worth,
Charles
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