S&W 1917 US Military in .38 Special with Matching Numbers

[murphydog]

Agree, I doubt even a master gunsmith would have gone through the trouble of serializing the barrel and cylinder to match the frame.

Don't know if you're planning to buy it, but an SWHF records search (after a letter of authenticity) may turn up information on it.

So the thread title could be "S & W 1917 US Military 'converted to' .38 Special with Matching Numbers".

 

[walnutred]

Keep in mind that in the last century if you were sent to the S&W armorers school your final project was basically a custom build of your choosing based on available parts. The first 22 Mag J frame I ever saw was the results of a police armorer building one as his class project, before 22 Mag J frames were offered. This could have been someones class project.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

The .38 special 1917 was re-examined today. It was in my opinion reworked at Smith. Factory workmanship, not bubba. The cylinder is matching with no rework and no sleeves. The barrel is matching too. Both look like hand numbered and no numbers ground off. The barrel is a commercial .38 Special 6.5" that is period correct style, font and original blue. No rework star or dates inside on the grip frame. Total blank there.

Will you get a S&W Letter and solve the mystery?

 

[StrawHat]

Consider this, after WWI, the Army required S&W to buy back any unused parts that were accepted prior to the end of the war. This included barrels, hammers, frames etc. This could have been one of those frames. At some point, after 1930 (based on the barrel), S&W received an order for an N frame in 38 S&W Special, pulled this old frame and built a revolver.

Kevin

 

[steelslaver]

Agree, I doubt even a master gunsmith would have gone through the trouble of serializing the barrel and cylinder to match the frame.

Don't know if you're planning to buy it, but an SWHF records search (after a letter of authenticity) may turn up information on it.

So the thread title could be "S & W 1917 US Military 'converted to' .38 Special with Matching Numbers".

I have a bunch of alpha numeral punch sets from 1/8" up. But, I have never numbered any parts. But, wouldn't be that hard.

I do agree the best way to be positive if it is factory if the route you suggest

 

[murphydog]

Consider this, after WWI, the Army required S&W to buy back any unused parts that were accepted prior to the end of the war. This included barrels, hammers, frames etc. This could have been one of those frames. At some point, after 1930 (based on the barrel), S&W received an order for an N frame in 38 S&W Special, pulled this old frame and built a revolver.

Kevin

Possible...but prewar 6.5" .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers exist, so if factory this was more likely a customer request.

 

[StrawHat]

Possible...but prewar 6.5" .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers exist, so if factory this was more likely a customer request.

Heavy Duty Model was introduced in 1930, so, yes, we are both in the area.

Kevin

 

[CJS57]

I do not own the gun, and it is not for sale by the gunshop owner. About the frame, it has 2 US Military acceptance proofs so I doubt it was left over parts that were used by the factory. I have no interest in the gun other than it is an interesting build.

 

[chiefdave]

The .38 special 1917 was re-examined today. It was in my opinion reworked at Smith. Factory workmanship, not bubba. The cylinder is matching with no rework and no sleeves. The barrel is matching too. Both look like hand numbered and no numbers ground off. The barrel is a commercial .38 Special 6.5" that is period correct style, font and original blue. No rework star or dates inside on the grip frame. Total blank there.
I suppose a decent gunsmith could also have done this work. But it would have have to have been back in the days when one could get an un-numbered and original Carbonia blue barrel and cylinder. About impossible to get nowadays.

This is much like my 1917 that was converted to 44 Special with the replacement barrel and cylinder properly numbered but no star or date on the grip frame. Letter and HS search could not document a factory rebuild.

 

[2152hq]

Enlarge this pic of the ser# on the rear face of the cylinder and you can see
that it was hand cut/engraved,,and not punch stamped into place.
Kind of shakey going round the curves and uneven in height of characters. Easy to see it was hand engraved.


Who ever did the work likely took a 'pattern' from a like size orig ser# on another part (Yoke?) and then transfered the pattern to the cylinder. Then cut that.
That gives you (the engraver) the correct font size and style to copy w/o having to try and duplicate it by drawing it by hand.
The quality of the finished product is all up to the skill of the individual engraver.

The same technique is used to copy lettering that is damaged, faded or otherwise going to be gone over during polishing/refinishing/restoration.
The 'pattern' is then used to lay the lettering (or figure) back down on the surface in the correct position and then cut by hand.

Patterns are re-useable if handled with reasonable care. These are not the commonly seen 'smoke pull' reverse image prints. Those are nice to look at but practically useless IMO for replicating work.

 

[CJS57]

I agree the new numbers are a poor job. But not sure I agree they were engraved. The top leg of the 5 for example is very squared ended and looks stamped to me. The barrel serial looks like it was stamped over a pre-existing serial number. Again poor job that makes me think it is an outside job not factory.

 

[Muley Gil]

Consider this, after WWI, the Army required S&W to buy back any unused parts that were accepted prior to the end of the war. This included barrels, hammers, frames etc. This could have been one of those frames. At some point, after 1930 (based on the barrel), S&W received an order for an N frame in 38 S&W Special, pulled this old frame and built a revolver.

Kevin

AFAIK, the frames that S&W bought back from the government after WW I were not serial numbered. These frames have standard serial numbers in the prewar N frame series.

 

[paplinker]

Possible...but prewar 6.5" .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers exist, so if factory this was more likely a customer request.

Yes! You had to special order a HD 6 1/2 bbl, pre WWII

What I am unsure of is did both prewar and post war have the same identical rollstamps? If not it would help with a time line of conversion.

 

[StrawHat]

AFAIK, the frames that S&W bought back from the government after WW I were not serial numbered. These frames have standard serial numbers in the prewar N frame series.

Muley Gil,

When in the process did they serialize the frames? Did the Army accept un-numbered frames?

Kevin

 

[Muley Gil]

Muley Gil,

When in the process did they serialize the frames? Did the Army accept un-numbered frames?

Kevin

It is my understanding that S&W sold complete, unserialized numbered frames to the US Government. If a 1917 suffered damage to the frame, it would be rebuilt using a new frame.

 

[CJS57]

But in the case of this gun it is serial numbered on the butt and also marked US Property there and also has 2 separate Springfield Armory acceptance marks on the frame. So this gun was accepted into the US Military for the start of its life.

 

[SGT ROCK 11B]

I do not own the gun, and it is not for sale by the gunshop owner. About the frame, it has 2 US Military acceptance proofs so I doubt it was left over parts that were used by the factory. I have no interest in the gun other than it is an interesting build.

It is an interesting build and I have no interest in it either.

But thank you for sharing with the Forum.

 

[kwill1911]

It is my understanding that S&W sold complete, unserialized numbered frames to the US Government. If a 1917 suffered damage to the frame, it would be rebuilt using a new frame.

Are you sure about this? Very surprising, if true.

 

[Model19man]

It is my understanding that S&W sold complete, unserialized numbered frames to the US Government. If a 1917 suffered damage to the frame, it would be rebuilt using a new frame.

I guess this was possible but unlikely. S&W would serialize a barrel for example if the revolver needed to be re - barreled. Would the USA send in a revolver needing a new frame? I don't know, seems unlikely.

 

[Muley Gil]

Are you sure about this? Very surprising, if true.

I wish I could remember where I read this. I had it saved at one time, but with several computer crashes through the years, stuff disappears.

But why else would the military stockpile parts like frames if not to replace them, at the armorer level or at Springfield Armory? It's not like the army is going to send a faulty revolver back to S&W.