S & W .22LR Third Model Perfected Single Shot Pistol, S&W Logo absent

[mrcvs]

From an auction recently closed, serial number 8858:

Smith & Wesson Perfected Target Pistol .22 lr |




Firearms & Military Artifacts

Firearms

Pistols

| Online Auctions | Proxibid

Note the absent S&W logo.

From this thread, my research suggests that the logo during this serial number range should be on the right sideplate:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-an...hird-model-single-shot-perfected-pistols.html

I don’t believe that this pistol has been buffed and refinished based on the photographs provided.

So, is it a replaced sideplate, a very well refinished sideplate (seems unlikely), omission at the factory and not caught by QC, or…???

Have other otherwise original Single Shot Third Model Perfected Pistols also been observed with this glaring omission?

 

[series guy]

Sure looks like someone got a screaming good deal on that one. I would bet on omission from the factory.

 

[mrcvs]

Sure looks like someone got a screaming good deal on that one.

Provided all numbers match, of which I was unable to verify prior to the auction.

 

[mmaher94087]

I'm with series guy; factory goof.

 

[Vidd]

Saw one

From an auction recently closed, serial number 8858:

Smith & Wesson Perfected Target Pistol .22 lr |




Firearms & Military Artifacts

Firearms

Pistols

| Online Auctions | Proxibid

Note the absent S&W logo.

From this thread, my research suggests that the logo during this serial number range should be on the right sideplate:

A pair of .22 Third Model Single Shot Perfected Pistols

I don’t believe that this pistol has been buffed and refinished based on the photographs provided.

So, is it a replaced sideplate, a very well refinished sideplate (seems unlikely), omission at the factory and not caught by QC, or…???

Have other otherwise original Single Shot Third Model Perfected Pistols also been observed with this glaring omission?

one from local auction in 2020 this one's been worked on mismatched barrel, and trigger work done maybe parts swapped? ??

 

[mrcvs]

I'm with series guy; factory goof.

That’s the best explanation, in this case, but it still seems unlikely.

 

[mmaher94087]

"..but it still seems unlikely." Agree. However, the alternative would be a rejected pistol that would need to be sent back upstream for correction for a relatively minor glitch and that would incur more labor dollars toward the manufacture. I'd surmise that the final QA inspector set it aside and the floor Supervisor made the decision to box and sell it thinking the end user would not know (or care) that a logo was missing.

 

[mrcvs]

Sure looks like someone got a screaming good deal on that one.

It should be noted the hammer price was $1100. Once you add in the 18% buyers premium, 4% Georgia sales tax, and shipping, as well as FFL fees, still a good deal, but not as great as initially perceived.

 

[series guy]

I would think that gun would be worth around $1800 - $2000 so at around $1500 for a gun in that condition it was well bought as they say in the car biz.

 

[mrcvs]

I would think that gun would be worth around $1800 - $2000 so at around $1500 for a gun in that condition it was well bought as they say in the car biz.

I think what this pistol went for, all fees included, was fair. With commission and Georgia sales tax, you’re into it $1349.92. Add in shipping and FFL fees, you are into it a bit less than $1500. Folks ask crazy prices for these on Gunbroker, but they don’t sell, and even a really nice one, such as this one, will likely eventually sell in the $1800 to $2000 range, but it usually doesn’t sell promptly.

 

[BMur]

Put it under the microscope

I knew this Single action collector once many moons ago. He had a pocket gauge on his key ring that would measure Single Action Army frame width. The purpose was to determine if the frame was "Re-stamped" with patent dates. In other words it was completely refurbished by whomever.

The same thing applies here. If the frame was damaged by surface pitting and the logo was lost due to a professional resurfacing and "Dare I say it"?? Re-bluing? A simple measurement of the frame thickness will tell the tale.


Murph

 

[mrcvs]

I knew this Single action collector once many moons ago. He had a pocket gauge on his key ring that would measure Single Action Army frame width. The purpose was to determine if the frame was "Re-stamped" with patent dates. In other words it was completely refurbished by whomever.

The same thing applies here. If the frame was damaged by surface pitting and the logo was lost due to a professional resurfacing and "Dare I say it"?? Re-bluing? A simple measurement of the frame thickness will tell the tale.


Murph

Now that’s interesting. Questioning the originality of this one. Which is why I didn’t leap for it.

Besides, I have this “no excuses” Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol which I own, finish is better than the one that is the subject matter of this thread, it has a checkered trigger, which is RARE, and my cost was only a couple of hundred more than this one. And matching numbers confirmed.

 

[BMur]

Restoration?

Lovely gun Ian,

With these single shots I can't help but notice that the frame being as flat as they are? From a restoration standpoint it is an absolutely perfect candidate to "resurface". To mill off say 10 thousandths off to reintroduce a perfectly flat and factory like surface would be fairly simple work on these. That would be enough to remove the logo. This type of resurfacing cannot generally be seen with the naked eye. You need a caliber to measure the loss. Especially with a "Professional" and high temp dark factory like re-bluing. It would look original.

I can't help but see things like this with antiques. The lack of a logo to me "immediately" suggests the surface has been shaved and restored. Seems to me to be more likely than a factory miss. I mean, honestly, that's a big miss.

Often restorations don't bother to completely remove the logo...It's then obvious when you see what appears to be a heavily worn logo, that has actually been lightly resurfaced, under a fresh nickel or blued finish but in this case if the logo is completely removed it becomes subjective to collectors when a professional bluing is applied.

If we put a gauge on that frame you'll have your answer. Unless you don't want to believe a gauge. In other words, measure a frame thickness having a strong original logo with a frame that does not have the logo. The frame lacking the logo would measure say 20 thousandths undersized....Which is proof positive of a resurfacing. (Restoration). Some things you can't see with the "expert eye" it takes a gauge to see it. That's why that SAA collector had a pocket gauge on his key ring....He was a HUGE SAA collector from Texas and he couldn't tell without the gauge!
Nice guy, I wish I could remember his name.

How many times I've heard the old story from car collectors that "My Car is all original, the original mileage on the original motor". Group of car collectors in a semi-circle around the hood all claiming...."Looks factory to me".

After the bets are placed, You pull the oil pan, pop a bearing cap and see a teenie weenie number .030 oversized on the bearing cap? That's a rebuild folks.

Murph

 

[rct269]

Under the heading of for what it's worth, I once had an RM which struck me as undersized----just to look at it----it was too damn small. As it happened, I wasn't in a position to answer the question of "Compared to what?"; but it was too damn small.

Time passed, and I had another RM. It didn't look too small, so I started measuring things. The too small gun varied by .010 to .030", and the .030" was the cylinder----------and that was easy to see. The gap between the cylinder diameter and the surrounding frame just jumped out at you.

Jinks' response to my subsequent inquiry went like this---exactly like this: "You can't tell anything by that." I went on about my business.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[mmaher94087]

OK, I guess I need to step in here. It's getting so deep that I had to roll up my cuffs; it's too late to save my shoes. The factory made many mistakes and some were huge. I will cite a .44 DA that missed the rifling stage of production. I do not believe the pistol in question has been refinished. I firmly believe that the side plate logo was missed; maybe at a shift change or a pee break. Mistakes happen.

As to what the C*** collectors do; I don't care. Let them run around with all the gauges they want. C***s have gone so bonzo in their prices that one needs to weed out the fakes.

And, as to the automobile reference above; Horse Hockey! All the engine manufactures would supply crankshafts with matching bearings and they often included undersized bearings to keep the line running.

 

[BMur]

Factory undersized bearings?

So, instead of "Stock" parts? In other words "Factory Original parts" the Factory would replace "Factory Original" specs with over or undersized spec's to "keep the line moving"? That's a good one... The yarns are pretty thick on this forum that's for sure.

I can tell you have rebuilt many an engine Mike.

Smith and Wesson is documented as stating and I quote that our tolerances are so tight that parts will interchange with our products. Anyone who has tried knows this is a factual statement.....That's called tolerances....very tight tolerances in order to make that statement.....No Yarns allowed! Any variation in size between gun parts are "obviously" tampered with. I don't see how that's so difficult to believe....Just like refinishing, restoration is as common as a dollar bill! NO YARN about it.

I for one would appreciate members watching their typed language. Some people take offense to profanity.


Murph

 

[mrcvs]

The general impression I have of this pistol is that it does NOT appear to have been refinished. But this doesn’t mean I am correct. Also, to further muddy, or not muddy, the waters, it would be helpful to know if there is a date code signifying a return to Smith & Wesson. If this would have any impact as to the current state of this pistol would be debatable.

But, to put it all into perspective, yes, some First Generation Colt Single Action Army revolver collectors do possess gauges. But, 357,859 of those were produced. Only a small fraction of that number would be the total production figure of the Smith & Wesson Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol. And then there’s the dollar figures involved. I presented photographs of my Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol already in this thread. It cost me earlier this year, all costs including shipping and FFL fees, just over $1700. It has a rare checkered trigger and is about the nicest one out there, or very close to it. When it comes to the Colt Single Action Army revolver, $1700 these days gets you, if you are lucky, a first generation revolver that has seen heavy use, no original finish left, and worn grips. If you are not so lucky, $1700 gets you a heavily buffed and refinished example, often with replacement parts.

So, when prime examples of the Colt SAA revolver can trade hands in the 6 figure range, and a serious collector will come across many examples in a lifetime, it might pay to have such gauges made. Conversely, when you have a somewhat uncommon pistol of limited value, you needn’t go to such zany measures.

Shhhhh….did I ever mention how underpriced the Smith & Wesson Third Model Perfected Single Shot pistol is? You could easily spend your hard earned funds less wisely!

 

[series guy]

I too have a Third Model Perfected in 99% condition and the gun in the photos appears exactly as mine is. I'm into mine for a few dollars more than mrcvs. With all the over stamps, miss marked barrels and the fact that for a few years some S&W revolvers didn't have the logo it isn't much of a stretch to think this gun left the factory without the side plate marking. It might even make this gun a little more rare than these guns already are.

 

[mrcvs]

…it isn't much of a stretch to think this gun left the factory without the side plate marking. It might even make this gun a little more rare than these guns already are.

You have to weigh the rarity factor vs the fact that an explanation is warranted, even if ever so slight. I wouldn’t pay any more for this rarity. If anything, it makes me value the pistol a bit less. Which is why I did not purchase the pistol that is the subject matter of this thread that otherwise hammered at a very fair price.

 

[ol777gunnerz]

info

To further muddy the waters, Looking at my shipping dates & serial numbers on my 3rd models [yes I know they did not ship them in order], the pistol could have easily been shipped in circa 1919. I have a 22/32 Heavy Frame that shipped in 1919 with no factory logo. A more informed member than I, stated the factory quit stamping them for a year or so when WW1 ended, S&W had also ran out of the target stocks & shipped it as lettered with Reg. Police grips. S&W did some out of the ordinary things during this time.