S&W 25-5 O/S Throats

[pistolairo]

I purchased a S&W 25-5, 45 Colt,4in, Pinned, very tight,98% pistol a few years back. Over the years I have collected & not had time to fire some of my pistols. Now that I am retired I started going to the range. After firing the 25-5 I was very disapointed. At 15 ft. bullet impact was 6in high. It wouldn't group and the barrel was leading up so fast that I had more lead in the barrel than I did down range. Is was shooting 255gr, No.2 alloy,over 8.5gr of Unique. The 225gr factory silvertips did the same without leading. In addition I had no elevation adjustment to lower the bullet impact. Read something about S&W didn't have enough front blade hgt on the 25's. Design was that on the 29 which doesn't work on a 25??

Starting reading a lot on the net including some aticals from this forum. So I measured the cylinder throats. Dial bore gages, telescopics/mic's and passed a lead sinker thru the throats to come up with 0.4578" to 0.4580" for all cylinders measured. The bore measured a 0.451" or close to that. In addition I dropped a 0.454" cast CowBoys thru each chamber, they didn't even come close to slowing down.

Ok, this explains it all??? Found out why S&W made over sized throats?? This is not important to me.

I want to make this 25-5 an accurate pistol, and I don't know what to do next.

I was ready to send the pistol off to Smith as I have it packaged up and ready to go. But since I read some of these threads I want to try a few things. So I un-packed it. In addition Smith said the Cylinder bluing wouldn't match the frame as the chemistry of the bluing has changed over the years??I found this revolting and I want to avoid this if I can. It's a almost flawless priece but " An Interesting Gun Is An Accurate Gun" unless your a collector.

Some threads mention going to a 0.454" dia. ,255gr lead bullet. I purchased some Hornady CowBoy loads of that dim & wht today but don't know what powder/wht/primer, etc, to go with for my particular problem.?? Are these bullets too soft or hard?? Should I go for another bullet? I don't cast and don't want to. Is there a source? Called NEI and they didn't seem to know what I was talking about. Could have been talking to the wrong person.

What are the jacketed bullets that people say will work? I purchased some 250 gr.,0452" XTP's but don't know what to put with them??

This is my 1st. post and I hope I haven't over done it or bored you to death as it seems as if this is a common concern without a real fix. Passing the pistol on to an unsuspecting person is not a consideration. If I can't find a solution I guess it's off to S&W Service Ctr. Thanks

 

[Catshooter]

I was with you and had your answer right up until you said you aren't gonna cast. Opps.

My 25-5 has throats much smaller than yours, .455 with a bore of .452. What I do is cast .456 bullets and don't size them down. Shoots very well and zero leading of course.

Mine also has the correct sight.

I would say pack it up and send it to Smith. Good luck.


Cat

 

[Charles]

Find an old .44 magnum cylinder and send it to Clement's Custom Guns to be line-bored with minimum-spec chambers.

Before you spend that money though, for your 250 gr. XTP, Lyman's 48th shows a max of 8.7gr Unique in the SAA Colt section. If accuracy is ok with those, then try some 185 gr jacketed bullets over 10 grains of Unique. That should bring your POI down a bit.

 

[pistolairo]

Once the 44 mag is optimally bored to 45 Colt dim's what is the next step? Do I use the parts off of the old cylinder? Will they blue it? Should I send in the whole pistol them to get the barrel, timing,etc., re-done?
Are you telling me that S&W won't do as good a job? I will try out the loads you memtioned. Thanks & looking forward to hearing from you soon.

 

[Charles]

Sorry, I re-read and my last post was unclear. Send the cylinder and revolver BOTH to Clements, and he will fit it. Bowen Classic Arms also does this sort of work, as will Alpha Precision. They are all on the internet.

S&W will be cheaper, but they will use a new 25 cylinder and if the finish is an issue for you, an older 29-2 cylinder would be the best match, most likely.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

The 25-5's came with .126" rear blades which doesn't work too well with anything other than factory 250's and 255's from Rem, and Win. I stoned mine down a few thousandths at a time until I could eaasily zero at 25 yards. I then lowered the sight notch's bottom surface to match, and touched up with cold blue (which hasn't worn off yet, and it's been several years). You can also order a rear blade kit from S&W with the .106" blade, which will also allow you to zero properly. The .106" blade doesn't have the white outline (which I like). I never came close to having to stone my blade to the point of hitting the WO. The front blade should have been several thousandths higher. I don't know what a company that had been figuring out the correct sight regulation on their gun sights for over 100 years was thinking with this model.

You can buy the factory Remington and Winchester bullets from places like Cabela's in bulk packs once in a while, and in packs of 100 pretty regularly.

The Remington runs 250 grains, and the Winchester rund 255 grains. They are soft swaged, and run .455" and .456" respectively, though I have heard of recent lots being about .001" smaller for each.

They have a hollow base (though each differs in design) that allows them to obturate in the throats and usually goes a long way towards making one of these 25's with OS throats shoot much better.

Another bullet that should work, and is also available from Cabela's, is the Mag-Tec 250 RNFP swaged bullet. I have had quite a few of them. They are good bullets with a shallow hollow base, and they run .455". They normally shoot darn well in any .45 Colt, though my 25-5 is a later gun with correct throats in it.

8-9 grains of Unique under any of these bullets is a good load for plinking and target work.

 

[pistolairo]

Can I purchase cast bullets that will work in this pistol? If so, from who? What size & type would you recommend & what what load would you put with it? I am really trying to keep this pistol without having to send it out for a cal change. I would like to hear the best ideas to resolve a problem that effects a large % of 25-5's. It seems as if there should be a step by step fix for this problem based on the O/S'd throat dimension. If the bullet load/match don't work for you then who do you send it to form the best results or best bang for the buck. I don't have anything against casting, I just can't get into it presently. Thanks For The Help

 

[pistolairo]

What kind of bullets are the Rem & Win that you mentioned? swc or jacketed? From what you are telling me the O.D. Dim. is 1 to 2 thousands larger than the Hornady CowBoy loads I picked up. The hollow back on the Rem & Win will bump up the diameter to contact the throat? Thanks, please let me know a little more about these rem & Win bullets!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

No one makes a cast bullet that large that I am aware of, unless you try a really heavy bullet for a .45/70, and order them undersized at .457". Your sights won't adjust enough for that weight bullet without replacing the rear blade, or at least doing what I did. You will have to settle for bulets that will run at least 300 grains or more going that route.

David Clements is a top notch gunsmith, but I'd send it back to S&W and have a new style cylinder installed. I don't know who told you that about their finish not matching, but all of the new guns that I have seen lately are very very close to what came on any 25-5, since they didn't come out until 1978, and by that time, S&W's finishes weren't top of the line anymore, anyways.

If you don't want to go that route, then send it in to Clements or someone of that level expertise, and have a .44 cylinder from a 29-3 fitted. That would be from the same basic time frame as the 25-5's and won't have recessed chambers, so it will match closely in finish appearence to your 25-5's cylinder. There's no real need to goto the expense of line boring a cylinder for a gun like this unless you just want to, butit'll add considerably to the cost. The 29-3 cylinder swap is about as easy as it can get. He shouldn't even have to re-blue it.

There's no other real cure for what ails you other than one of the suggestions already made, because if there was, someone would be a wealthy person about now.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

What kind of bullets are the Rem & Win that you mentioned? swc or jacketed? From what you are telling me the O.D. Dim. is 1 to 2 thousands larger than the Hornady CowBoy loads I picked up. The hollow back on the Rem & Win will bump up the diameter to contact the throat? Thanks, please let me know a little more about these rem & Win bullets!

Neither. They are conical. They are basically a semi pointed design with a small flat nose at the tip. They are the same bullet that has been standard in the .45 Colt since its inception in 1873.

 

[sw282]

si--------

 

[pistolairo]

The Smith rep I talked to told me about the miss match of the cyl to the frame when the switch is made. How large can you go to match a 0.458 throat and not off set the .451 bore dim. It seems to me that a .007 larger slug going down the barrel will off set a few variables?

 

[pistolairo]

If all else fails and I have to send in the pistol for a cylinder swap can I use the 0.454" CowBoy Hornady bullets in the 25-7 I picked up last week, or will these be to large to shoot in it?.

 

[sw282]

si--------

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I have no trouble firing .456" bullets down my .4515" bore, since I keep my loads down to SAAMI spec pressures for those bullets. If you use .455", or .456" bullets with the hollow base design, they slug up and fit tightly in the throats, even if they are .002'-.003" bigger still. That's exactly what they are designed to do. Being soft swaged bullets, they obturate fairly easily, then swage back down going through the bore.

I believe that you were/are hoping for someone here to have a miracle cure, but it just isn't going to happen. There's only so much that can be done with these guns without going to the expense of having either a new cylinder fitted, or one rechambered, but if you follow some of the advice above, you should be able to get your gun shooting fairly decently.

That will mean relaoding your own, or getting someone to do it with you that already has the equipment.

Never let anyone make loads for you though! All it takes is one mistake and you won't have to worry any longer about your gun!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

If all else fails and I have to send in the pistol for a cylinder swap can I use the 0.454" CowBoy Hornady bullets in the 25-7 I picked up last week, or will these be to large to shoot in it?.

I have both a 25-5, and a 25-7, and I shoot the bullets I mentioned above through them both with no problems, and the throats in them are spot on at 452" for the 25-7, and 4525" for the 25-5.

 

[pistolairo]

I think I caused some confusion in my earlier statment. I do re-load, just started again after many years. I don't cast bullets, although it looks interesting, I can't fit it in right now. When I get ready I hope you can all help me out on what I need to get started.

I guess I was looking for the majic bullet to cure the O/S Throat issue. When you don't cast, you can't expieriment around with bullet dia's and powder loads to get improved results, perhaps not a fix, but an improvement.

What I am going to do at this point is send the pistol to S&W and let them do their thing to it.

I accomplished, with all your help, what I needed to know. I have explored most aspects other then sending the pistol in for repair. Some I am not able to do & other ideas that might work. The bottom line the pistol in it's current condition would be a fussy eater.

This is the first forum that I have joined and it's been very helpfull for me to discuss these matters, and to bounce ideas off while sharing experiences of a common interest.

There is so much STUFF about firearms that I don't know nor will ever know. With the collective knowledge of all of you and sharing it with me I feel better about my decisions. It's hard when you just have half a story and don't know where to turn to get the right information.

I'll keep all of you informed of my results with S&W. I can say that they have been very good to deal with so far.

Thank's to all of you and hope to hear from you soon. I feel much better!

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I forgot to mention to you last night-

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

Let us know what happens with your gun. We all learn from each others experiences. That's what makes this such a great place. Some of have lots of knowlege in one area, while others have it in another. Some seem to have it in all areas, but everyone is willing to share it here.

 

[thedane]

I have a 4" 25-5 with oversized cylinder throats. There are two problems that you need to address. One is the POA and the second is accuracy. Regarding the POA, when I bought my 4", the sights had already been slightly filed/stoned down. As you have noticed, without this modification or without a different sight blade, your gun will shoot high. Until you resolve this issue, you probably won't know how accurate the gun is.

Secondly, I have tried many bullet sizes/types. I started with my cast 255 gr. sized at .452. Mainly as a result of "reading" that I had to have larger bullets, I shot my 255 gr. cast sized at .454 and Hornady's (454 Diameter) 255 Grain Lead Flat Nose Bullet. At the end of each shooting session, I shot Hornady XTP Bullets 45 Caliber (452 Diameter) 250 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point.

After several shooting sessions, I reverted back to my cast 255 gr. .452 bullets. These seem to be the most accurate in this gun.

I have no significant leading and I use 8.5 grs of Unique behind a cast 255 gr. sized at .452.

Before you invest in a new cylinder, I would fix the sights and try a few range trips. You might find that the accuracy improves.

 

[Mike_1974]

I have to throw my lot with thedane. I have two model 25's one with .458" cylinder bores and the other with .452". I have read all the info about the inaccuracy of the over bored cylinders but darn if I can see any difference in accuracy between these two guns even though the smaller bore gun is a five inch as opposed to the over bored being a four inch. All my loads consist of Ideal mold 454424 bullets cast from wheel weights over 8.5 grains of Unique. Sometimes I resize the bullets to .452 sometimes I lube only and load as cast. This does not seem to change anything about the way the guns shoot. Understand I am not by any means a great shooter but with the info I have given I can keep most of the rounds from either gun in 4 inches at 25 yards off hand.