S&W .455 Revolver
- Thread starter Ed Hicks
- Start date
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Looks like a World War 1 British gun. I see some of the stampings are still there. But from the look of the stamps, the guns been refinished. Are the cylinder Chambers reamed for 45 Colt?
Guy
Guy
That is a ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" #3 version below. It has been re-finished. Many of these were re-chambered for American cartridges like 45 Colt or 45 ACP/AR. You'll want to verify if that's the case by determining which cartridge will chamber in the cylinder if you're considering a purchase.
There are three basic versions of .455 Mk II (Webley) chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks. The .455 (Webley) Mk II when stamped by S&W, refers to the cartridge, not the revolver. However the 455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version below) were stamped II for "Mark II Revolver" by the British on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The 3 Versions of .455 Mk II Hand Ejectors (actually all were chamber reamed long enough to also accommodate the longer .455 Webley Mk I cartridge per the British contract. So the model name is a bit of a misnomer), for the British are:
1. ".44 HE 1st Model", 'Triple Lock' converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].
NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mk II HE 1st Model", TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 ".44 HE 1st Model TLs", also in .455 in 1. above.
*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:
Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.
3. ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and ".455 HE 1st Model TL" of category 1. and 2., .455s respectively. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
"As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model, Triple Lock frames [#2. above with .455 chambering]. These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
There are three basic versions of .455 Mk II (Webley) chambered Hand Ejector revolvers made by S&W under contract to the British for WW I. All three versions include some triple locks. The .455 (Webley) Mk II when stamped by S&W, refers to the cartridge, not the revolver. However the 455 HE 2nd Models (3rd version below) were stamped II for "Mark II Revolver" by the British on the left rear frame of the revolvers and are known as such by them.
The 3 Versions of .455 Mk II Hand Ejectors (actually all were chamber reamed long enough to also accommodate the longer .455 Webley Mk I cartridge per the British contract. So the model name is a bit of a misnomer), for the British are:
1. ".44 HE 1st Model", 'Triple Lock' converted to .455 chambering: 812* factory reconfigured, unassembled or unsold ".44 Spl HE 1st Models", often not stamped .455, original chamberings unknown, most or all likely .44 Spl, 666 for the British #1104 thru 10417 (obviously not all serial #s in this range were used for the 666), the extra 146 in serial range #9858-10007 for the commercial market; 123 in England and 23 in the US [N&J pgs. 204-205]. These 812 .455 TLs were serial #'d in the .44 1st Model serial # range of 1 to 15375. The 666 were shipped in 33 different groups ranging from 4/8/14 to 4/28/16 with the majority delivered 10/21/14. These will often have added lanyard swivels when converted to 455 at the factory by drilling thru the serial # which is factory re-stamped on the left side of the grip frame under the stock.
* SCSW reports "over 800", but by shipped serial # count, it's actually 812, 146 of which are commercial guns [S&WN&J pgs. 203, 204 & 205].
NOTE: Of the 146 .44 HE 1st Models that were converted/built as .455s assembled some time after the first 666 military .44 1st Model .455 TLs and sold commercially, 123 were sold to the British, shipped to Wilkinson Sword 10/1/14 and 23 sold in the US, shipped to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis, MO. on 1/1/1918.
The 23 at some point were converted to .45 Colt and it's unknown if by the factory before shipment to Shapleigh or after delivery to Shapleigh. However even IF converted by the factory (as suggested in a September 2013 Rock Island gun auction narrative), the revolvers would not have a star on the butt or a rework date on the grip frame because they did not go back to the factory for conversion as rework, they were converted before they left the factory.
2. ".455 Mk II HE 1st Model", TL in the new .455 British serial # range 1 to #5461 [H of S&W pg. 201] made 1914-15; thus creating a possible ~ 68* duplicate serial #s of the 812 ".44 HE 1st Model TLs", also in .455 in 1. above.
*About Duplicate 44 HE series serial #s with Brit contract series S/Ns:
Duplicate numbers of the 666 .44 HE TLs chambered in .455 (#1104-10417 in the 44 HE range - not all inclusive, are known and published) + 146 (#9858-10007 .44 HE range - not all inclusive, are published as well), can exist with 68 of the .455 HE 1st Model TLs (#1–5461 in the Brit contract # range), and with the .455 2nd Models (#5462 and up to #15375 - the last .44 HE 1st Model serial #) in the Brit range.
3. ".455 Mk II HE 2nd Model" (sans extractor barrel shroud and 3rd lock, but with slightly larger cylinder/frame window dimensions from the ".44 HE 1st Model Triple Lock" factory converted to .455, and ".455 HE 1st Model TL" of category 1. and 2., .455s respectively. The 2nd Model continued in the .455 1st Model TL Brit serial range beginning #5462 to #74755, shipped 1915-17. By Feb 1916 724 were manufactured for the Canadians, chambered in 45 Colt, presumed for the RCMP [H of S&W, pg. 203]. Another 15 in 45 Colt were sold commercially in 1916. The Canadian military also bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models. And 1105 2nd Models were released for commercial sales in the US, shipped Dec 1917 to Shapleigh Hardware in St. Louis [S&W, N&J pg. 216].
"As the Brit contracts were finishing up in [April, H of S&W pg. 203] 1916, S&W found enough [44 HE frames and 455] parts to build 691 .455 HE 1st Model, Triple Lock frames [#2. above with .455 chambering]. These guns will be numbered in the .44 Spl serial number series. I have no idea why they were not just numbered in the .455 series. Perhaps it was .455 barrels and cylinders that the factory found, and they simply turned again to existing 44 HE 1st Model TL frames to use them up. They were sold commercially." Lee Jarrett
DWalt
Member
If this one has been re-chambered, it was not for the .45 ACP - cylinder-recoil shield gap is too thin. Conversions to .45 Colt were fairly common for the .455 revolvers after WWI. A picture of the rear face of the cylinder would help make that determination. BTW, your photography is very good.
I see no sign the gun has been modified. So, it is probably still in .455 caliber.
With the serial number still on the cylinder it was not cut down for 45acp. Chambers are not partially counter sunk for 45 colt. Recoil shield could have been taken down a bit to clearance colt rimswhich are slightly thicker than 455, but looking at the photos I would say this has not been done either. Probably still a 455.
The British must have got a bit tired of wacking proofs and stamps all over revolvers by the 2nd model. My first model has quite a few more than yours.
The British must have got a bit tired of wacking proofs and stamps all over revolvers by the 2nd model. My first model has quite a few more than yours.
Congrats OP. steelslayer is correct, if you can see SN on face of cylinder it hasn't been cut. I have one that is close to yours in SN. They are cool, old revolvers for sure.
DWalt
Member
Agree with the above. No indication yours has been converted to anything other than the original .455 cartridge. Not ideal from a shooter's perspective, as that round is difficult to find in shooting quantities.
Jack Flash
Member
The holster looks like a British Officer's. It certainly looks original.
