S&W 500 Magnum light reloading with N105 powder and 50AE bullet?

[troller]

Hello everybody!
I am new to this forum and this is also my very first post; I'm a happy owner of a Mod. 28-2 4" and soon will be owning a 500 SW Mag 6.5" barrel.
I would like to ask to those that are shooting this gun or other very powerful handguns in general two suggestions regarding reloading of this cartridge.
I am currently only used to reloading 10mm Auto, 45 ACP and 40 S&W. I only use Vihtavuori powders and I have a good amount of N105, that I was thinking about using it with the 500 SW.

1)
The first question is this: from the VV website there is a load indication for N105 and for the Speer 300gr TMJ ball. It appears that ball is conceived for the 50AE caliber and not the 500 SW Mag, and it does NOT have the cannellatures usually found on the 500SW ball. I am assuming that if VV is publishing this data, it will be 100% safe to use these bullets, but it is strange nevertheless. What are your opinions on this?

2)
The second question is related to my idea of making a light load for "recoil familiarization" purposes. The most powerful gun/round I have shot so far was out of a SW 29 4" barrel loaded with Sellier&Bellot .44 Magnum SP 240grs load. Looking at the specs on their website, it appears those are not really such powerful loads, they are listed @ 1280 ft/s out of a 4.5" inch barrel. That gun felt comfortable to shoot, quite snappy yes but I managed to get out a box of rounds out of it without any fatigue at all. Very fun to shoot.
Now, going from there to the 500, and reloading, I wanted to start by creating a very light load to get confidence on the recoil, and then work up. I wanted to start with the 300gr ball from Speer (that I can find easily here), but load with less than minimum charge. VV data states a minimum of 30.6 grains of N105 and max 36 grains. That's a 20% range from minimum.
I wanted to try reloading as a light-load around 24-25 grains of N105, keeping the same COL as indicated on the table.
Will this cause any serious problem such as unburned powder or squib load or even worse those sometimes-read-on-the-web explosions from low density charges?
I have calculated the "density" of powder compared to the available chamber space (COL – bullet length) for this option and compared it with the value obtained using VV minimum powder charge for 44 mag, 357 mag, 38 special, 45 acp, and it appears that even with such low loading, the density is roughly 10% less than the minimum suggested for 44 magnum / 357 magnum but anyway almost double than the minimum suggested for a 45 acp (in this case 45 acp using N350 powder, a little faster burning….).

Any open suggestion on the two above questions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!


Andy

 

[ruggyh]

Why don't you address your questions directly to Vihtavuori? They have always answered my questions in a timely manner.
The response will be better than internet opinions (mine included).

1. You will need to crimp 500S&W load firmly even reduced.

2. Personally would not load below manufactures recommendation. Many powders are also pressure dependent and require a minimum pressure to perform correctly.

I have not used N105 in the 500S&W but have used N110 with good results with light bullets.

As a side note: these bullets are designed to be used in a max 36K psi autoloader as opposed to a 65K psi revolver, I would not try to push them to hard.

Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[troller]

Well, first of all thanks for your answer!

I have purchased the Lee 3-set carbide dies; should I also purchase the Factory Crimp Die then?

Thanks
Andy

 

[ruggyh]

I have Lee, Hornady, RCBS and Redding dies in 500 and 460 and prefer the Hornady Crimp die over the others.

I seat and crimp separately for these cartridges.
I also trim the brass for consistent crimp.

Be safe
Ruggy

 

[troller]

Can I use a Hornady crimper die on the Lee 4-die holder disk?

Thanks

 

[colt_saa]

Welcome to the Forum

Well, first of all thanks for your answer!

I have purchased the Lee 3-set carbide dies; should I also purchase the Factory Crimp Die then?

Thanks
Andy

Absolutly, positively YES that is the crimp die that you want.

The LEE employs a collet crimp which is far more effective than a roll crimp or a taper crimp.

Seat and crimp in separate steps

Most Factories use a collet crimp on their ammunition. A collet crimp works well with or without a cannelure

Learn to use the Forum's Search function.

50AE projectiles in the 500S&W is not an uncommon topic here. We had this thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reload...ojectiles-500-magnum-have-some-questions.html Just a few days ago.

 

[classichunter]

Troller welcome to the forum. I bought the same gun a couple of weeks ago but it has not yet been delivered. The 50AE bullets are the correct diameter at .50" they just don't have the cannelure. I'd be leary of loading that big case with less than a minimum charge listed by the powder manufacture. As said call Vihtavuori and ask them directly. I'm going to be loading for the 500 mag very soon and and interested in your results. I wont try and run the pressure up above the 50AE levels. It should be a nice round to shoot in that big gun.

 

[troller]

I wont try and run the pressure up above the 50AE levels.

thank you for the answer!
what do you mean by that sentence? Didn't you mean running it BELOW 50AE levels?

 

[classichunter]

thank you for the answer!
what do you mean by that sentence? Didn't you mean running it BELOW 50AE levels?

No,I was speaking about me. I'm not going to try a shoot 50AE bullets at much higher pressures than they were designed for. I think it safe to run it below that pressure. It just needs to be done within the parameters of the powder. Some powders are case sensitive and wont ignite correctly if the case isn't at a certain level. I've read that the 500 needs about 22,500 to launch the bullet out of the barrel in the 500 mag. I'm not familiar with the N105 powder. I just don't like going outside of test parameters much. To much chance of making a costly mistake. If you were open to trying a different powder. Trailboss might be just the ticket for low pressure light loads in the 500 and still fill the case 70% or more.

 

[roscoepc]

As one who owns a 500 also, (8-3/8" barrel), I'd like to make a suggestion to you to help get a "baseline" feel for the gun! Try a box or two of the Winchester 350gr JHP Reduced Recoil rounds! I've shot some Federal 270gr VitalShok's that kick like a hot .357 mag load, some Winchester 400gr Platinum Tips that produce a smooth/solid kick with about a 4" barrel rise and the 350gr Winchester's which was just about right as far as kick and control of the weapon.

Those 350 grain Winchester's produce a muzzle velocity of 1350fps with 1416ft/lbs of energy. I'm presently loading with 12.2 gr of Titegroup and producing about 1100fps, (not chrono'd yet), and the gun is VERY comfortable to shoot!! But, as I've been beaten soundly about the head and shoulders for using Titegroup, I'll be researching other powders for similar results with a 350gr bullet....

Have fun with them and Welcome to the 500 Club!!!!!

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

As one who owns a 500 also, (8-3/8" barrel), I'd like to make a suggestion to you to help get a "baseline" feel for the gun! Try a box or two of the Winchester 350gr JHP Reduced Recoil rounds! I've shot some Federal 270gr VitalShok's that kick like a hot .357 mag load, some Winchester 400gr Platinum Tips that produce a smooth/solid kick with about a 4" barrel rise and the 350gr Winchester's which was just about right as far as kick and control of the weapon.

Those 350 grain Winchester's produce a muzzle velocity of 1350fps with 1416ft/lbs of energy. I'm presently loading with 12.2 gr of Titegroup and producing about 1100fps, (not chrono'd yet), and the gun is VERY comfortable to shoot!! But, as I've been beaten soundly about the head and shoulders for using Titegroup, I'll be researching other powders for similar results with a 350gr bullet....

Have fun with them and Welcome to the 500 Club!!!!!

I too have been using Titegroup in my 500 loads. Have been using Berrys Plated 350gr over 11gr of Titegroup with a WLP primer. Very comfy load to shoot and it does print a very tight group.

 

[troller]

Thanks for the suggestions.
It looks like Titegroup would be an ideal "starting" powder. Trail boss is too low, I wouldn't want to go so low-power.

I wanna eventually shoot good power 400grs load; would you think it is ok to start already with the 400grs bullets (starting of course from the minimum listed for Titegroup), or it is wiser to start anwyay with a lighter 300grs bullet?

 

[roscoepc]

Hodgden's site doesn't show a recipe for a 300gr bullets but the one for the 400gr using Titegroup shows a weight range from 15.0gr to 17.5gr.. 2.5gr's is not that large of a space from a mild to wild load as far as chamber pressures!! That's why I went with the 350gr bullet. The loading weight ranges from 11.0 to 18.5gr... A bit more of a margin and that 350gr JHP Hornaday XTP should drop what yer needing to drop.

NOTE!!!!! If you've never used Titegroup you'll find out REAL quick that 11.0gr's is not that large of an amount and the chances of a double throw of powder blowing up yer gun is a very real possibility unless you're extremely anal about your loading technique's!!!

I'll prime my cases in lot's of 50 but I measure/pour the powder and lock the bullet in lot's of 1 If I pour the powder the bullet ALLWAY'S get's locked!! Everytime!!

Good luck, Be Carefull, and Have Fun!!!

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

My 2015 Hodgdon reloading magazine also does not list a 300gr load. They do list a 275gr Barnes XPB with a starting load of 11gr and a max of 20gr Tgroup. They also show a 325gr Barnes XPB with a starting load of 12gr and a max of 20gr Tgroup.

 

[9mmsubgun-m11]

roscoepc is correct in that you need to pay close attention when using Titegroup as 11gr barely covers the web of the 500 case. I am loading them 1 at a time on a 550 and carefully looking inside each case.

 

[troller]

just out of curiosity, how is that Titegroup, one of the fastest-burning powders around (at least according to Lapua/VV tables) is suitable for such a Magnum cartridge where usually sloow burning powders are indicated?

Also, if I had the choice to buy from Midway either:
- Lee Collet-Style Crimp Die
- Redding Profile Crimp Die
- RCBS Roll Crimp Seater Die
- Hornady Custom Grade New Dimension Taper Crimp Die

of all the above which is the best (money not a factor) and the second in case the first is not available?

Thanks again!

 

[thibaultfelix40]

I bought a 500 S&W Handy Rifle to use to lob heavy boolits at low speed. The Lee 50 cal blackpowder boolets fit my bore. I am fond of a 365 grain modern improved minie that looks like a huge hollow based wadcutter loaded over 6.4 grains of unique which is one of the Lee dippers. If you double charge with this load, you will still be below max. I have no idea what the velocity is but it will leave big holes in stuff, break rocks and not kick much.

 

[MJFlores]

My only advice here would be to be extremely careful with reduced loads in that cartridge. I've read several posts about 500's blowing up, and some feel it was due to "spontaneous combustion", were there's more air space in the case than powder. S&W insists these instances were due to a double charge of powder, others insist it was not. Some have analyzed the situations and say it is very possibly that too little powder in that large case did cause the failure. Either way, just be very careful. I would opt for a more "filling" powder. I havent read anything about this but, perhaps more study is to be done regarding shortening the cases (while being mindful of pressures) but this warrants a lot more study on the matter. Be careful, and safe!

 

[ruggyh]

just out of curiosity, how is that Titegroup, one of the fastest-burning powders around (at least according to Lapua/VV tables) is suitable for such a Magnum cartridge where usually sloow burning powders are indicated?

Thanks again!

It is is not a suitable powder- none of the fast burning powders are.

John Ross used to post here on a regular bases and has noted all the blown up 500 he has seen or returned to him the owners were using Titegroup. If you don't know who John Ross is do some research.

Most swore up and down they could not have doubled up the powder.

Funny how Titegroup advocates say how careful they are, wont happen to me, yet look at the number of failed guns.

If you have enough money to buy a X-frame you have enough money to use/chose the right powders.

Use a reloading manual (data) were the publisher developed all their own load data - note one publishing information from who knows where. When in doubt get it from the powder and bullet manufacture.

My 2 cents.

Be safe,
Ruggy

 

[troller]

Yes I've heard the guy (John Ross)

my position here is that I would like to find a load (and at this point I'm more than open do deviate from Vihtavuori and buy something else) that will allow me to at least shoot 20-30 rounds of low power 300-350 grains bullets, that off my future 6.5" comp barrel will not travel more than say 1300 fps... just to get familiar with the recoil.
I know the obvious answer would be "go out and buy either a box of 500 SW Special or a box of Magtech's light load #500L", unfortunately those are not available where I live (Italy).

And looking/reading all those posts of 500s blowing up 'cause of Titegroup, and then reading the Hodgdon reloading page listing all those loads of that powder kind makes me a bit "afraid" and not so certain anymore about the safety of reloading on such powerful cartridges.

A final option I have is simply to use my VV N105 powder, reload exactly 0.2 grains MORE than their minimum stated for 300 grs, use same bullet and COL as indicated in the table, and I calculated using Homer Polwey's formula that this should yeld with a 300grs bullet, out of my barrel a speed of 1565 ft/s, and energy of roughly 1600 lbsft.
I just don't know if I will be able to comfortably handle that from the beginning


Andy