S&W 500 Reloading Ranier

rpollard01

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Hi,

I have done a ton of research on reloading the 500 and thought I would try a recipe out to see where I stood.
Also, I have been reloading 9mm and 223 for 2 years. Just so you know.

I got the data from Ranier.
Projectile Weight: 335 gr
Powder: Alliant 2400
Charge: 31 gr
Velocity: 1480
Dies: RCBS 3 die set with a roll crimp
OAL: 2.07
Primers: Win LRM

Roll crimp is about .004" less then the case below the neck. Measured at the very top where the roll crimp is.

I loaded 5 and shot 4. Measured the OAL on the remaining one in the cylinder and it appears the projectile moved to 015" more than the set length. I set it at 2.07 and it now measures 2.085.
The primers on all 4 have expanded and flattened but still stayed barely below flush with the primer cup. Being that the primer shifted out and expanded, this tells me the roll crimp is too tight. However, the charge is the bottom of the range. I still have more charge that can be added but as tight as the crimp is, and the appearance of a bulging primer already, I don't think I can add more charge. Nor can I loosen the crimp as the other rounds will loosen more.
One thing to note: The crimp appears to have created a noticeable indentation where the crimp was. Being that the bullet moved out of that groove, I can see the crimp pressure's effect. This is why I'm cautious about more crimp.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
 
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Respectfully...
I believe that 90-95% of handloaders that "read" primers are being wildly misled, and misdiagnose what they believe they see in the appearance of a primer.

Primer reading is a horribly vague sport akin to reading tea leaves. Aside from a LEAKING or pierced primer... it's extremely difficult to nail down certain answers from what can be seen.

The best possible way to gain information from visually inspecting primers is to compare and constrast primers across an array of loads when the ONLY variable is the powder charge weight.

If the load data says you have room and the brass ejects freely, I think you are being falsely lead by trying to read primers.

I also don't believe you can have too much crimp in a .454, .460 or .500 Mag unless/until you have wrecked the brass or the bullet.

Finally, I'm not much a fan of Ranier plated bullets. In other calibers, I prefer Berry's and Xtreme. And in a monster magnum of extremely high pressure, it seems like putting the cart before the horse to use cheap bullets.
 
@Sevens,
Respect is appreciated but 2 years experience makes not an expert in my experience. But, thanks!

Anyway, the advice about primers is noted and appreciated. I was told the primers were showing signs of pressure by the local RSO who was an old timer.
The primers seemed pretty easy to seat but no more easier than other rounds I load.
So, all that said, even the groove the crimp caused, which I forgot to include in my above description when you read it originally, I'm thinking, as you said, short of destroying the bullet and short of ripping the plating off as it pulls out of the case, I can try more crimp, correct???

Thanks!
 
I believe that yes, you can try more crimp -- but the amount of movement you observed isn't enough to concern me quite honestly. If the Ranier 335gr has a crimp groove and your 5th round was still in that groove, I wouldn't be quick to worry.

Myself, for the "bullet pull" test, I like to run twice -- so 8 rounds with that #5 round subjected to all the recoil.
 
Flatted primer are normal in 454, 460 and 500 S&W. primers.

Case will start to become sticky at just over 60kpsi.

You case extraction as a guide to load pressure on these cartridges.

The crimp won't make more the 1000 psi difference in peak pressure.

It will be easy to demonstrate.

Load a case and don't crimp- shoot make you primer observation and you will see it is no different than those you crimped.

Mr Stevens posts are on the money.

be safe
Ruggy
 
@Sevens,

The Ranier projectiles do not have a crimp groove. It's an Action Express round but Ranier said it works in the 500.
Just to be clear, there was a self inflicted groove created with the roll crimp. The #5 round jumped out of that groove.
From what I'm hearing, I should not worry about the primer until it starts coming out of the primer pocket, correct?
And 2x run with same #5 round sounds like a good plan.
Thanks!
 
@ruggyh,
Thanks for validation. Also, you just gave me key information I searched the Internet for and couldn't find, What's the best way to judge pressure issues and how does the crimp affect it.
The plan is, I'm going to measure the crimp so I'll know what it will take to keep the bullet in the case at this charge and then use that as a guideline for hotter loads.
Sound like a plan?

Thanks guys!
 
Not being insulting or offensive, but why would you use cheap bullets in a premimum revolver with a newer "high tech." cartridge?

This thread is one of the reasons I don't recommend plated bullets to new reloaders; not enough easily found info. As for increasing the crimp, on a plated bullet in a heavy recoiling gun it will be pretty much trial and error. Add more crimp until pulled bullets show damage and plating cutting. Shoot a few and check following chambered rounds for "walking" bullets.

I'd suggest some regular jacketed or even cast lead bullets to start with and shopping around you can find some good prices...
 
I see no reason whatsoever to be concerned with what you see (or think you see) in a primer unless/until it is leaking.

Agree with mikld above that regardless of what Ranier says, these are not optimum bullets for a .500 S&W Magnum. They should be used for light target only... keeping in mind that at much lower speeds, you may find yourself needing to adjust sight elevation just to get them on target.

Furthermore... the "self inflicted" groove you witness is your first step toward cutting through that plating.

Perhaps of much more concern would be forcing cone/barrel damage if you ended up sending these lightly constructed bullets at too high a pressure.

Though I had a short little dance with .500 Mag myself, I ended up selling that one to focus on .460 Mag. Ballisticians from Alliant stressed in more than one conversation with me the importance if using "Magnum" bullets (such as the .452" 240 grain XTP-Mag bullet) in .454, .460 and large, high pressure magnum revolvers. As they explained, the irrational stress imparted to the slug at a full load can willfully distort the bullet in it's jump from cylinder to forcing cone.

If that bullet gets distorted and attempts to hit the forcing cone "out of round", eventual damage will result. This isn't exclusive to .454/.460/.500 but a potential problem in .327 Federal Magnum also -- any revolver round of high pressure where lightly constructed bullets running outside their design scope.

For your Ranier plated in .500 Magnum, I wouldn't attempt to run them at anything approaching full-spec and capability of the .500 Magnum.

Yes, .500 Magnum components are expensive... but compared to factory ammo, you're still getting a helluva bargain by handloading. If you want to shoot .500 Mag... spend the money for quality bullets.
 
Try using a faster burning charcoal and add some water soaked Mesquite for added smoke. :D

tJfBvwM.jpg
 
I talked to Ranier again today and they said I can crimp until I see splattering of copper on a card board target.
On the matter of spending more... I did not state this up front but this is only for target practice. Ranier said I should be able get it up to ~1700 ft/s. Not sure but will see...
Also, I have researched for quite a while for non-plated FMJ projectiles. As far as I know, they do not exist. There is however, a multitude of hunting/self defense rounds at around $1.00 per projectile. Utterly ridiculous for plinking...
I know where I can get 300 gr. 1195 ft/s factory ammo for $0.96 per round. My goal is to beat that price building my own. With Ranier and even Berry's which is higher, I can build them cheaper and still exceed the 1200 ft/s of the factory rounds.
If you guys know of an FMJ lead safe projectile that's not ~$1.00 per projectile, please point me in that direction... The one stipulation I have is, I don't want to shoot leaded or hard cast for health reasons. Lead is extremely toxic to humans.

Any ideas where one can get stronger than plated FMJs for the 500?

Thanks!
 
You are way, WAY off base in the health risks and concerns regarding lead and especially lead bullets. I could tell you how and why, but your mind seems made up. You should research this subject-- the education may be enlightening.
 
@ruggyh,
Thanks for validation. Also, you just gave me key information I searched the Internet for and couldn't find, What's the best way to judge pressure issues and how does the crimp affect it.
The plan is, I'm going to measure the crimp so I'll know what it will take to keep the bullet in the case at this charge and then use that as a guideline for hotter loads.
Sound like a plan?

Thanks guys!

The only sure way to know the pressure is to use published data were actual testing has been performed.

Velocity and pressure do not have a direct correlation between powders.

It takes about 80KPSI to blow a primer loose (my actual testing), if you get to this point you are not following a good loading practice.; start low and work up. If the cases have sticky extraction you have reached the limit.

Also use bullets within their pressure/velocity rating. Jacket separations can have catastrophic results.

Look at older posts on 460 and 500 for addition discussion.

Reloading for 500 is not difficult, use appropriate components for the load in development.

Use enough crimp to prevent bullet jump/creep - don't get crazy - it is possible to crimp and create a buckle or bulge at the crimp which will prevent the round from being chambered.

As I mentioned in previous post the crimp will have little effect on peak pressure.

Your bullet selection is ok for reduced load but should not be used for real 500 potential loads.

be safe
Ruggy
 
@Sevens,
Tell me why?

I've seen scientific data on numerous sources where lead and other heavy metals are the cause of diseases like Alzheimer. I've done research for close to 10 years on health related subjects. There's even warnings on labels with anything with lead that has the potential of being airborne.

The lead and other heavy metals research I've done had nothing to do with soft/hard cast bullets. It was exposure in food and water sources that are considered dangerous by the EPA.

Should stress that I have not studied the effects of soft/hard cast bullets on humans. But, since there are even warning labels on lead based ammo, I would assume there's a reason for that...

Also, it's entirely possible that the airborne lead effect is lessened as the hardness of the lead increases??? Not sure.


Thanks!
 
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@ruggyh,

Good info as always.

I believe I am following common sense approaches to reloading. My first 5 loads were minimum recommended charge for Alliant 2400 at 31 grains for the Raniers.
I'm not increasing the charge until I get control of the bullet creep. And by control, I mean I know precisely what neck crimp works best and I've fired quite a few rounds with consistent results.
BTW, Ranier also said to buy a Lee Factory Crimp die. Unfortunately, they do not make a die for the 500. The best they have is you can send them seated bullet and they will custom build one. That's crazy being that there's numerous projectiles that would be seated differently for each one. Heck of a deal for them as they will charge $30 for each one. Not very cost effective.

Thanks!
 
Just to cover all the basis...

I need better alternatives for target practice than hunting/self defense rounds. It doesn't make sense to spend $1.00 per projectile that is used for hunting/self defense only to shoot at paper.
To date, there is no FMJs I have found other than plated that are reasonably priced. If Berry's makes a better bullet than Ranier, I'm there. I shot some Magtech FMJ flat point factory ammo a couple of weeks back. Loved it but can't find that projectile.

I have not and do not plan on pushing these rounds way past their 1500 ft/s recommended. I may go past it but not very far and very cautiously.

And maybe, if Seven can help me with some research that indicates soft/hard cast bullets are not poisonous, I'll look at that as well as they are way cheaper and you can go all the way to 700 gr.

Thanks for everyone's help. It's appreciated very much! REALLY good information that I have not been able to find. You guys should write a book. :)
 
And maybe, if Seven can help me with some research that indicates soft/hard cast bullets are not poisonous, I'll look at that as well as they are way cheaper and you can go all the way to 700 gr.

Lead has to enter the body to be harmful. The ability to absorb lead lead through touch is not existent for all practicable purposes. For that matter one could swallow a bullet and it would pass without being absorbed. Lead oxides that are breathed are more of an issue along with and lead sulfates/sulfides.

The primer used today provide more potential exposure to lead compounds than the bullet.

If you are really concerned you should have you physician do a base line lead blood level test (it is not really lead but lead compounds) and get checked to an annual bases to see if your levels have changed.

Shooting indoors with little ventilation poses the biggest risk - breathing the primer residue - Lead styphnate.

Ask yourself how often do you hear of some get /having lead poisoning from reloading or even shooting.

be safe
Ruggy
 
@Sevens,
Tell me why?

I've seen scientific data on numerous sources where lead and other heavy metals are the cause of diseases like Alzheimer. I've done research for close to 10 years on health related subjects. There's even warnings on labels with anything with lead that has the potential of being airborne.

The lead and other heavy metals research I've done had nothing to do with soft/hard cast bullets. It was exposure in food and water sources that are considered dangerous by the EPA.

Should stress that I have not studied the effects of soft/hard cast bullets on humans. But, since there are even warning labels on lead based ammo, I would assume there's a reason for that...

Also, it's entirely possible that the airborne lead effect is lessened as the hardness of the lead increases??? Not sure.


Thanks!
I can only cite empirical testing/observations. In my time playing with lead bullets (started reloading
38 Specials with 158 gr LSWC in '69 and started casting for my .44 Magnums in '89, and shooting them to Magnum velocities) I have heard of only one person affected by lead's toxicity and he was a full time bullet that had been casting for nearly 20 years. Everything else has been, as far as lead and the shooting sports, is conjecture or speculation. If you are around reloading forums long enough you will read of the "lead poisoning" inflicted on unknowing reloaders and shooters from casting, handling, shooting lead bullets to lead styphinate in primer during shooting and the lead styphinate in the tumbling media from spent primers is just theory or someone quoting an off the wall "report". I've been casting sinkers longer than I can remember, many years, shooting for about 50 years (with mebbe the majority of my shooting being done indoors), reloading for 30+ years and casting lead bullets for well over 20 years and my annual blood tests show a low to normal lead level.

I also believe the "warnings" are politically motivated to "insure" a supposedly toxic substance is identified. Yes, lead can be toxic and detrimental to human beings, but at the levels found in shooting/casting it would take many years of daily exposure to be of any concern.

I'm not saying to be "cavalier" about the safety side of cast bullets and lead, but much of the information is either old wive's tales or scare tactics...
 
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I stopped casting bullets in 1982 after reading a article in the American Rifleman.

It had nothing to do with pure lead, "BUT" it had to do with the heavy metals in wheel weights. The article stated there was no difference in blood lead levels between plumbers and bullet casters. But bullet casters who used wheel weights had much higher heavy metals content in their blood.

I had two small boys under three years old at the time so I quit casting. It was a shame the wheel weight manufactures at the time were putting so much junk metals in the wheel weights.

The days of cheap Linotype and pure lead are long gone and its not as cost effective casting if you have to buy good materials.
 
You can also go coated with lead bullets too, such as the Hi-tek coated bullets Missouri Bullet Co. sells for loading the S&W 500. The bullet is completely coated with the Hi-tek polymer with no exposed lead. And my experience with the Hi-tek coating is that it holds up well at higher velocities than plated bullets. I don't own any .500 caliber weapon, but I have shot the MBC .357 140 Zinger bullets at over 1900 ft/sec out of my Rossi carbine without any failure of the coating or leading in the barrel. That stuff is tough. And there are also folks that use powder coating on hard cast bullets that give excellent results too but I've never personally tried any PC bullets.
 
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