S&W 640 and 642

[surveyor47]

Martial Warrior,
My recently deceased brother in law was a Federal police instructor and we used to shoot together regularly and he taught me a lot. His advice is always in the back of my mind. He used to go crazy at my 5 shot revolvers, telling me that those guns would get me killed in a fight. He was adamant that 6 shots was the minimum. He also didnt like my S&W CS9, because of the 7 round magazine capacity. The one gun that he really like was my 3" round butt S&W 65, and said that he carried that model for years on duty. I often pointed out that he and I carried for completely different purposes; to which he countered that once the shooting starts, your original purpose becomes irrelevent.

I think he would have approved of your plan of carrying 2 guns if carrying 5 shot revolvers, but would have been quick to point out the firepower advantage of a subcompact semi auto if carrying 1 gun. He always had a minimum of 2 guns on him.

 

[ENGINE18]

You can't go wrong with either!

 

[Lowtide]

I am looking for a voice of experience regarding speedloaders and crimson trace grips on a 640. My current factory grip prohibits access.

 

[Martial Warrior]

Again, thank you for the welcome everyone. Many good points being brought up here. Some that bear further discussion.

My recently deceased brother in law was a Federal police instructor and we used to shoot together regularly and he taught me a lot. His advice is always in the back of my mind. He used to go crazy at my 5 shot revolvers, telling me that those guns would get me killed in a fight. He was adamant that 6 shots was the minimum.

Having more rounds is always comforting. And we all base our opinions upon research and personal experiences. And not to disrespect your brother-in-law (RIP) in any way, shape or form but I would wonder what experience lead him to believe that a 5 shot revolver would get you killed vs. a 6 shot revolver?

As I mentioned, we all base our opinions upon research and personal experience. I've been on both ends of the barrel. I've been in four deadly-force situations in my career. The first was with my S&W 64 and the bad guy was approx. 7 feet away from me. The second was much later in my career with my Beretta 9mm. This was standing outside the driver side window and the bad guy in the passenger seat. Perhaps 5 feet at most. The last time with my side arm, this time my Glock 21 .45 ACP I was approx. 10 away and the bad guy was elevated about 12 feet above me. Direct line (without doing the math) would be about the same I suppose 10-12 feet. The longest was about 25 yards, but that time I had a 12g shotgun with rifled slugs and an aim point sight. That was a situation though I doubt any off-duty or private citizen would ever fing themselves in so it is the odd ball of the four.

My point is that typical situations are most often up close and personal. Statistically, most real world shootings are very few rounds. There is the odd 'rampage' types of shootings and of course Hollywood would have us believe different, but the last statistic I saw (and it was a while ago so might be dated) was something like 2.2 rounds per fight. That is both good guy and bad guy shooting. Don't hold me to that number, I'm going off memory and it very well may have gone up. But I don't think were looking at any where near double digits. Might be an interesting thing to research....

So most shootings are close range. But not all of them, and we could all be in a situation where a long range shot is necessary. But ask yourself this (anyone), would you take that type of shot? Shooting at a range, under no duress and with all the time in the world to line up the sights, squeeze the trigger, make adjustments etc is quite a bit different than being in a SHTF situation where your heart is pumping out of your chest and bystanders are a real possibility. Regardless of revolver/semi and regardless of how many rounds we have on us. Just a thought.

I like semi-autos and don't want to give the impression that I'm against them. Carried them for many years. Too be honest though, the two Glock 19's I had were nice, but overall just wasn't totally comfortable with them. Mostly because of the finger grooves. Worst thing Glock has done. I had an old generation one Glock 17 that I should have hung on to. Thing fit my hand like a glove and I could shoot very well with it. In fact, that was the gun I used not only at the FDLE firearm instructor academy but the Israeli firearm instructor academy as well. Should have hung on to it (20/20 hindsight).

My strategy for a deadly force situation is to remain as calm as possible. My last situation was on Memorial Day of this year so it is pretty fresh in my mind. During it, I never got an adrenaline dump and was able to calmly and logically think through the entire situation step-by-step. And I don't mind saying that a previous prayer for calmness in this type of situation was answered. I want to gain cover. I want to shield loved ones and get them to cover as well. Fortunately the Israeli training covered this sort of thing in great detail. It was also the most brutal combat training I've ever had. Imagine standing at the 3 yard line. Then you pick up your partner who is simulating that he's injured and put him in a firemans carry. You then run backwards with him on your back as you draw your sidearm, chamber it off your belt and engage multiple targets live fire while gaining cover. That was just one of the drills.

I'm probably being long-winded again, but what I'm trying to say is that my game plan involves more than the type of firearm I'm carrying or the amount of ammo. It is part of the equation but not the totality of it.

Just some rambling thoughts to throw out there

 

[surveyor47]

My brother in law was a career Boarder Patrol/Immigrations officer. He was always going to be outnumbered, but never outgunned or out of weapons.

 

[Martial Warrior]

My brother in law was a career Boarder Patrol/Immigrations officer. He was always going to be outnumbered, but never outgunned or out of weapons.

I can now understand his perspective. I was born in Arizona so I'm familar with that type of environment. Often times you are a long way from potential help or back up. I can remember Bill Jordan and others speak of the situations that arose out in the middle of nowhere. I would also equate this to highway Troopers in many states where you can find yourself on the interstate a loooong way from anywhere or any back up.

And if I were in similar circumstances I would want all the ammo I could get as well. And more to the point, the best long gun I could get.

 

[surveyor47]

I knew him through our work for over 10 years before his sister had him "check me out". I regularly worked with him in a civilian capacity while he checked things out, before he would let me proceed with my work. He used to love telling me "No, go sit down over there and wait". So he knew me well when he gave sis the ok to date me.

His point of concern was that I would run dry with a 5 shot revolver, which was slow to reload. He knew that I was not carrying a backup gun, whereas he was carrying multiple backup guns. He was a strong believer in the 40S&W and the 357 Magnum. He also knew my preference for the +P38 Special, which concerned him as well. He was never without a long gun close by.

 

[Martial Warrior]

Did a bit of research. Take a look. Very interesting read.
NYPD Article

Of interest to this discussion;

Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed
confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per
incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also
substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6
rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not
a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary
to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved
cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action
was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone.

 

[KEN L]

An interesting read if only from a "nostalgic" point of view. These were the exact figures my chief quoted to me at the time as an argument against allowing our officers to carry autos. Unfortunately this was the aniquated thinking of many department heads at the time. His comment to me was, "Since there are less than 3 rounds fired in the average confrontation, why do we need to carry firearms with higher capacities?"

This was back in the early 80's. Hey, at least we could carry .357 magnums and use speedloaders. But, there came a time when we were limited to .38 spl in all weapons. Since some of our officers chose to carry .38's they deemed it necessary to have everyone carry only .38 loads. You know, in the event that one of them ran out of ammo, I could toss them an extra speedloader of ammo. Sorry boys, you shoot up yours, you ain't gettin' mine! Besides my L frame speedloader won't work in your K and J frames.

Fast forward a couple of years. I was finally able to convince my department and our backwards thinking chief it was time to come up to the present and catch up with the rest of the law enforcement world. Of course the FBI shootout in Miami in 86 sadly made my case. But I digress...........

I was also the primary firearms instructor for my department for 17 years, so I can appreciate your position. Those who would disagree with your decision on what to carry, especially at this stage in your career, do so from a limited perspective. Everyone has an opinion. Mine is, decide for yourself what is best for you. I may not agree, but thats the beauty of owning and carrying what you choose. I always used as part of my instruction, "If it feels good to you and your are comfortable with it, your confidence level will be high and you will shoot it well!"

As for the question that was raised about speedloaders and lasers. Safariland and Crimson Trace! JMO, of course!

 

[cg267]

I have a 640 no dash that I carry as much as I can. I found that the Buffalo Bore 158 lead H/P work great out of it.

 

[photoman]

"Since there are less than 3 rounds fired in the average confrontation, why do we need to carry firearms with higher capacities?"

Anyone know if officer survival rates have increased since transitioning to high capacity sidearms?

 

[Martial Warrior]

Just joined, first post. Hello to everyone

I've had Glocks for years. And, being an Academy Instructor it was pretty much a necessity as we use the Glock 21 .45ACP and other agencies in the area use the Glock 22 .40 S&W.

Nowadays I'm over the hump and on the tail end of my career and I don't actively teach anymore (as far as Academy or in-service firearms). And I just wanted a change.

So, I picked up a LNIB S&W 642 .38+P. I love the size and weight of the gun and carry it as my off-duty gun in a Fobus holster. Got it for a straight trade for an older (but good condition) Glock 19 I'd had for years. It came with the square 'boot' style grip and I ordered the fuller sized grip from S&W as well.

This weekend I'm planning on picking up a S&W 640 .357 for $460 NIB with two grips (one the boot style and the other the fuller sized grip). I plan on making this my main off-duty carry piece and keep the 642 for those times when my apparel requires a bit smaller/lighter firearm (I'm thinking of looking for an ankle holster for it).

So, with that background I'd like to hear from others who have/have had either or and their comments on them. I feel I got a good deal on the 642 and the deal on the 640 is also very good. Comments on that would also be welcome.

I'm leaning on getting a box of the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel in .38+P for the 642 and in .357 for the 640.

Thank you and appreciate your comments.

Well I received my 640 yesterday. Of course UPS didn't deliver until after I'd left for work so I didn't get to see it until I got home after shift.

Very nice gun. It was as it was advertised by the private seller i.e. NIB with all the paperwork, spend factory round and such. Only the ad said it was pre-lock and it actually had the lock & key. I'm assuming this makes it a 640-3?

Seemed to be very well made. Date on the spent round envelope was 12-12-03. The little locking hole seemed to work just fine. Haven't had the chance to fire it yet of course, but hopefully in the very near future.

 

[Grog]

Anyone know if officer survival rates have increased since transitioning to high capacity sidearms?

There have been so many changes (body armor, better training, more long guns, etc) that I doubt you could say any increase could be attributed to just a high capacity handgun.

That being said, I know I would feel more comfortable with 9rds/45-16rds/40-18rds/9mm in hand over six rounds.



I had a security job from 2001 to this year and we were all issued Glock 22 sidearms. We were "stuck" with 10rd mags because they were bought in the klinton ban era and regulations would not allow private purchase of extra mags (since we were not going to be issued extra ammo anyway). At first I didn't like it much, but then I realised that 11rds on .40S&W beats the hell out of 6rds of .38spl and a spare 10rd mag was a lot easier to use than a speedloader under stress.



Of course I did have a pouch with extra loaded mags in my vehicle as well since I used Glock 40s in my own time

 

[Martial Warrior]

There have been so many changes (body armor, better training, more long guns, etc) that I doubt you could say any increase could be attributed to just a high capacity handgun.

This is a good point. 'Back in the day' i.e. revolver days, body armor wasn't really a wide spread item. And in those agencies that had it, well you were almost looked down upon if you chose to wear it. And of course there was the urban legend that stated you were better off getting shot without it as wearing one would cause a worse injury. Nowadays it is very common. And my agencies, like my own, it is part of the uniform so if you aren't wearing it...your out of uniform and can be disciplined.

Also, duress alarms in radios and cruiser go a long way to protect officers. And of course non-lethal tools are more plentiful than in yesteryear.

Good point Grog.

 

[6pack]

Howdy Martial Warrior.

First off, the heat. The oppressive heat and humidity really dictate a lot to me. We seem to be cursed by the same. If I'm not at work then you'll find me wearing shorts and tee shirt or golf shirt from April-October. That being said....a lightweight pocket holster is just the thing.

I recently picked up a new 442 (I think same as your 642...just different finish). I followed the advice of a buddy and on another forum and bought a box each of the Horndady Critical Defense load and the Speer load you mentioned. I had a chance last week to finally shoo the gun at a local indoor range. 5 yrd and head shot were easy, 10 yards you can place them center mass all day long, 15 yards and your making body hits. Not bad for a dao pocket gun that is super snag-free. Recoil was nothing for either round. I'd have no qualms over adding on another as my wife's ccw.


I think you'll love that gun as a small carry weapon.

I don't have any experience with the 640 but it's certainly on my "must try" list. Sounds like you got a solid deal on it.

Hope you get some quality range time with both and enjoy them.

I've been finding that Midwayusa.com has been keeping the Speer Gold Dot load in stock for around $22 / box of 20. Ordered some more for mine the other day.

For what it's worth....I love GLOCKS, too. Just thought I needed to get that out there. I completely agree with your statement about the finger grooves. My paws just don't fit well on their compact and subcompact models but do really well on their full sized. I have a G22 that I really like. Haven't put that many round through it yet...still in the "getting to know you" stages. It's dead nuts with the white box Winchester loads I've tried. It replaced a G20 due to ammo availability and cost. So far I'm very pleased. It's a true keeper.


Good luck and I look forward to reading your future posts.

 

[Martial Warrior]

Hi 6pack. You're not kidding about the heat and humidity! This summer has been something else. I've lived in hot climates all my life except for a couple of years up North during my last two years in the service. But man...walk outside for 15 seconds and you're already starting to sweat. And I'm in good shape!

Yeah, I love the Glock. But I could REALLY do without the finger grooves. They aren't bad on a 17 or 21 size frame, but the smaller 19 or 26 frame just doesn't feel right. I shoot great with them, but they're just not comfortable. To be honest, the best Glock I ever had was an old Gen 1 17 I picked up used in a gun shop. I used that 17 in both my instructor courses and it served me without a problem. And of course I traded it away for who knows what years ago....

I've had a lot of guns I should have hung on to over the years. I'm sure I'm the only one to make those types of mistakes

 

[Barsch]

I've been carrying a model 36 virtually every day for almost 30 years (it was purchased new when I was a young NYPD recruit). The blue is worn, there are nicks and scratches...and I have a story about each one. The grips are original, as is the tyler grip. When I go to the range, I take it in my hand and it just "fits". It functions better now than the day it came out of the box, we know each other very well by now and I trust my life to it.

I have other firearms (Smiths, Glocks, Rugers, Seecamp), and now that I'm retired I've tried carrying them. On those rare times that I do, it feels like I'm wearing a strangers shoes. They may be nice shoes, but they're not mine.

 

[fourXfour]

As a younger LEO, I am a big fan of carrying a j frame. I carry a 340M&P off duty strong side and on duty as a back up. I also have a no lock 442 that is occasionally carried as a back up off duty. I have my sights on a pro series 640 with moon clips. I also like the .22 cal 43C as well as maybe trying out a .327 Federal gun.

I've struggled with the idea of only having 5 rounds. I've experimenting with carrying with full size to sub compact semi autos. I've bought and sold probably 40 guns searching for the perfect off duty gun over the last 9 years. Once I finally got around to the j frame, I was sold. It's taken a little while to be comfortable with only five rounds. I've practiced with various speedloaders and strips. Both right and left handed. I'm much more confident now with speedloaders. Speedstrips are much slower for me, but great for tac reloads.

I love the simplicity of the j frame. I like the long heavy trigger pull. I feel the longer trigger pull is safer for my needs. Less chance of the trigger hanging up on something & going off. I also like not having to rack the slide on a live round. I know there is a minutely small chance of a round going off, but it can happen (at least according to the few armorer classes I've been to). Great OWB, IWB or in the pocket. Ability to make contact shots is a bonus.

Personally, five rounds on your person is a whole lot better than a semiauto carrying 17+1 that's in the safe. I know I can consistently carry the j-frame in almost every situation. It's important to me to be consistent in my training. I mainly train with my duty gun from my duty rig and my jframe from concealment.

 

[Grog]

Yeah, I love the Glock. But I could REALLY do without the finger grooves. They aren't bad on a 17 or 21 size frame, but the smaller 19 or 26 frame just doesn't feel right. I shoot great with them, but they're just not comfortable. To be honest, the best Glock I ever had was an old Gen 1 17

I prefer mine FG-less too. I could use a G22 with them, but my personal 23 I had to use a dremmel tool on to remove the fingergrooves. The 27 was ok enough and I loved my 1st Gen 17.

 

[AZretired]

I started in LE in 1978 and carried a revolver as my duty weapon for 13 years. Never fealt undergunned. I switched to auto cause i had to but I always carried a 5 shot .38 as a back up and off duty (m60 & 640). Been ccarrying a 642 or a 638 for the last few years, both have locks and both are reliable. I do carry a reload and I as a department firearms instructor I was able to put alot of rounds downrange so I feel fairly confident with 5 rounds. Never had a revolver have a mechanical failure when the gun would not fire. I've been retired for 4 years so I only carry for protection and avoid trouble when possible.