photoman
Member
Anyone know if officer survival rates have increased since transitioning to high capacity sidearms?
S&W 640 and 642
- Thread starter Martial Warrior
- Start date
Anyone know if officer survival rates have increased since transitioning to high capacity sidearms?
OP
Martial Warrior
Member
Just joined, first post. Hello to everyone
I've had Glocks for years. And, being an Academy Instructor it was pretty much a necessity as we use the Glock 21 .45ACP and other agencies in the area use the Glock 22 .40 S&W.
Nowadays I'm over the hump and on the tail end of my career and I don't actively teach anymore (as far as Academy or in-service firearms). And I just wanted a change.
So, I picked up a LNIB S&W 642 .38+P. I love the size and weight of the gun and carry it as my off-duty gun in a Fobus holster. Got it for a straight trade for an older (but good condition) Glock 19 I'd had for years. It came with the square 'boot' style grip and I ordered the fuller sized grip from S&W as well.
This weekend I'm planning on picking up a S&W 640 .357 for $460 NIB with two grips (one the boot style and the other the fuller sized grip). I plan on making this my main off-duty carry piece and keep the 642 for those times when my apparel requires a bit smaller/lighter firearm (I'm thinking of looking for an ankle holster for it).
So, with that background I'd like to hear from others who have/have had either or and their comments on them. I feel I got a good deal on the 642 and the deal on the 640 is also very good. Comments on that would also be welcome.
I'm leaning on getting a box of the Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel in .38+P for the 642 and in .357 for the 640.
Thank you and appreciate your comments.
Well I received my 640 yesterday. Of course UPS didn't deliver until after I'd left for work so I didn't get to see it until I got home after shift.
Very nice gun. It was as it was advertised by the private seller i.e. NIB with all the paperwork, spend factory round and such. Only the ad said it was pre-lock and it actually had the lock & key. I'm assuming this makes it a 640-3?
Seemed to be very well made. Date on the spent round envelope was 12-12-03. The little locking hole seemed to work just fine. Haven't had the chance to fire it yet of course, but hopefully in the very near future.
Grog
Member
There have been so many changes (body armor, better training, more long guns, etc) that I doubt you could say any increase could be attributed to just a high capacity handgun.
That being said, I know I would feel more comfortable with 9rds/45-16rds/40-18rds/9mm in hand over six rounds.
I had a security job from 2001 to this year and we were all issued Glock 22 sidearms. We were "stuck" with 10rd mags because they were bought in the klinton ban era and regulations would not allow private purchase of extra mags (since we were not going to be issued extra ammo anyway). At first I didn't like it much, but then I realised that 11rds on .40S&W beats the hell out of 6rds of .38spl and a spare 10rd mag was a lot easier to use than a speedloader under stress.
Of course I did have a pouch with extra loaded mags in my vehicle as well since I used Glock 40s in my own time
OP
Martial Warrior
Member
This is a good point. 'Back in the day' i.e. revolver days, body armor wasn't really a wide spread item. And in those agencies that had it, well you were almost looked down upon if you chose to wear it. And of course there was the urban legend that stated you were better off getting shot without it as wearing one would cause a worse injury. Nowadays it is very common. And my agencies, like my own, it is part of the uniform so if you aren't wearing it...your out of uniform and can be disciplined.
Also, duress alarms in radios and cruiser go a long way to protect officers. And of course non-lethal tools are more plentiful than in yesteryear.
Good point Grog.
Howdy Martial Warrior.
First off, the heat. The oppressive heat and humidity really dictate a lot to me. We seem to be cursed by the same. If I'm not at work then you'll find me wearing shorts and tee shirt or golf shirt from April-October. That being said....a lightweight pocket holster is just the thing.
I recently picked up a new 442 (I think same as your 642...just different finish). I followed the advice of a buddy and on another forum and bought a box each of the Horndady Critical Defense load and the Speer load you mentioned. I had a chance last week to finally shoo the gun at a local indoor range. 5 yrd and head shot were easy, 10 yards you can place them center mass all day long, 15 yards and your making body hits. Not bad for a dao pocket gun that is super snag-free. Recoil was nothing for either round. I'd have no qualms over adding on another as my wife's ccw.
I think you'll love that gun as a small carry weapon.
I don't have any experience with the 640 but it's certainly on my "must try" list. Sounds like you got a solid deal on it.
Hope you get some quality range time with both and enjoy them.
I've been finding that Midwayusa.com has been keeping the Speer Gold Dot load in stock for around $22 / box of 20. Ordered some more for mine the other day.
For what it's worth....I love GLOCKS, too. Just thought I needed to get that out there. I completely agree with your statement about the finger grooves. My paws just don't fit well on their compact and subcompact models but do really well on their full sized. I have a G22 that I really like. Haven't put that many round through it yet...still in the "getting to know you" stages. It's dead nuts with the white box Winchester loads I've tried. It replaced a G20 due to ammo availability and cost. So far I'm very pleased. It's a true keeper.
Good luck and I look forward to reading your future posts.
First off, the heat. The oppressive heat and humidity really dictate a lot to me. We seem to be cursed by the same. If I'm not at work then you'll find me wearing shorts and tee shirt or golf shirt from April-October. That being said....a lightweight pocket holster is just the thing.
I recently picked up a new 442 (I think same as your 642...just different finish). I followed the advice of a buddy and on another forum and bought a box each of the Horndady Critical Defense load and the Speer load you mentioned. I had a chance last week to finally shoo the gun at a local indoor range. 5 yrd and head shot were easy, 10 yards you can place them center mass all day long, 15 yards and your making body hits. Not bad for a dao pocket gun that is super snag-free. Recoil was nothing for either round. I'd have no qualms over adding on another as my wife's ccw.
I think you'll love that gun as a small carry weapon.
I don't have any experience with the 640 but it's certainly on my "must try" list. Sounds like you got a solid deal on it.
Hope you get some quality range time with both and enjoy them.
I've been finding that Midwayusa.com has been keeping the Speer Gold Dot load in stock for around $22 / box of 20. Ordered some more for mine the other day.
For what it's worth....I love GLOCKS, too. Just thought I needed to get that out there. I completely agree with your statement about the finger grooves. My paws just don't fit well on their compact and subcompact models but do really well on their full sized. I have a G22 that I really like. Haven't put that many round through it yet...still in the "getting to know you" stages. It's dead nuts with the white box Winchester loads I've tried. It replaced a G20 due to ammo availability and cost. So far I'm very pleased. It's a true keeper.
Good luck and I look forward to reading your future posts.
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OP
Martial Warrior
Member
Hi 6pack. You're not kidding about the heat and humidity! This summer has been something else. I've lived in hot climates all my life except for a couple of years up North during my last two years in the service. But man...walk outside for 15 seconds and you're already starting to sweat. And I'm in good shape!
Yeah, I love the Glock. But I could REALLY do without the finger grooves. They aren't bad on a 17 or 21 size frame, but the smaller 19 or 26 frame just doesn't feel right. I shoot great with them, but they're just not comfortable. To be honest, the best Glock I ever had was an old Gen 1 17 I picked up used in a gun shop. I used that 17 in both my instructor courses and it served me without a problem. And of course I traded it away for who knows what years ago....
I've had a lot of guns I should have hung on to over the years. I'm sure I'm the only one to make those types of mistakes
Yeah, I love the Glock. But I could REALLY do without the finger grooves. They aren't bad on a 17 or 21 size frame, but the smaller 19 or 26 frame just doesn't feel right. I shoot great with them, but they're just not comfortable. To be honest, the best Glock I ever had was an old Gen 1 17 I picked up used in a gun shop. I used that 17 in both my instructor courses and it served me without a problem. And of course I traded it away for who knows what years ago....
I've had a lot of guns I should have hung on to over the years. I'm sure I'm the only one to make those types of mistakes
I've been carrying a model 36 virtually every day for almost 30 years (it was purchased new when I was a young NYPD recruit). The blue is worn, there are nicks and scratches...and I have a story about each one. The grips are original, as is the tyler grip. When I go to the range, I take it in my hand and it just "fits". It functions better now than the day it came out of the box, we know each other very well by now and I trust my life to it.
I have other firearms (Smiths, Glocks, Rugers, Seecamp), and now that I'm retired I've tried carrying them. On those rare times that I do, it feels like I'm wearing a strangers shoes. They may be nice shoes, but they're not mine.
I have other firearms (Smiths, Glocks, Rugers, Seecamp), and now that I'm retired I've tried carrying them. On those rare times that I do, it feels like I'm wearing a strangers shoes. They may be nice shoes, but they're not mine.
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As a younger LEO, I am a big fan of carrying a j frame. I carry a 340M&P off duty strong side and on duty as a back up. I also have a no lock 442 that is occasionally carried as a back up off duty. I have my sights on a pro series 640 with moon clips. I also like the .22 cal 43C as well as maybe trying out a .327 Federal gun.
I've struggled with the idea of only having 5 rounds. I've experimenting with carrying with full size to sub compact semi autos. I've bought and sold probably 40 guns searching for the perfect off duty gun over the last 9 years. Once I finally got around to the j frame, I was sold. It's taken a little while to be comfortable with only five rounds. I've practiced with various speedloaders and strips. Both right and left handed. I'm much more confident now with speedloaders. Speedstrips are much slower for me, but great for tac reloads.
I love the simplicity of the j frame. I like the long heavy trigger pull. I feel the longer trigger pull is safer for my needs. Less chance of the trigger hanging up on something & going off. I also like not having to rack the slide on a live round. I know there is a minutely small chance of a round going off, but it can happen (at least according to the few armorer classes I've been to). Great OWB, IWB or in the pocket. Ability to make contact shots is a bonus.
Personally, five rounds on your person is a whole lot better than a semiauto carrying 17+1 that's in the safe. I know I can consistently carry the j-frame in almost every situation. It's important to me to be consistent in my training. I mainly train with my duty gun from my duty rig and my jframe from concealment.
I've struggled with the idea of only having 5 rounds. I've experimenting with carrying with full size to sub compact semi autos. I've bought and sold probably 40 guns searching for the perfect off duty gun over the last 9 years. Once I finally got around to the j frame, I was sold. It's taken a little while to be comfortable with only five rounds. I've practiced with various speedloaders and strips. Both right and left handed. I'm much more confident now with speedloaders. Speedstrips are much slower for me, but great for tac reloads.
I love the simplicity of the j frame. I like the long heavy trigger pull. I feel the longer trigger pull is safer for my needs. Less chance of the trigger hanging up on something & going off. I also like not having to rack the slide on a live round. I know there is a minutely small chance of a round going off, but it can happen (at least according to the few armorer classes I've been to). Great OWB, IWB or in the pocket. Ability to make contact shots is a bonus.
Personally, five rounds on your person is a whole lot better than a semiauto carrying 17+1 that's in the safe. I know I can consistently carry the j-frame in almost every situation. It's important to me to be consistent in my training. I mainly train with my duty gun from my duty rig and my jframe from concealment.
Grog
Member
I prefer mine FG-less too. I could use a G22 with them, but my personal 23 I had to use a dremmel tool on to remove the fingergrooves. The 27 was ok enough and I loved my 1st Gen 17.
AZretired
Member
I started in LE in 1978 and carried a revolver as my duty weapon for 13 years. Never fealt undergunned. I switched to auto cause i had to but I always carried a 5 shot .38 as a back up and off duty (m60 & 640). Been ccarrying a 642 or a 638 for the last few years, both have locks and both are reliable. I do carry a reload and I as a department firearms instructor I was able to put alot of rounds downrange so I feel fairly confident with 5 rounds. Never had a revolver have a mechanical failure when the gun would not fire. I've been retired for 4 years so I only carry for protection and avoid trouble when possible.
I have 3 S&Ws M10s that I got at a auction of my late LEO friend that passed away of lung cancer due to heavy smoking. 2 are 4 inchers and both parkerized and beadblasted 10-6 and 10-8 and I also have his 10-9 done the same way. I also carry the 10-9 2 inch in a iwb that Ihave had for 20 years. I also have a 640 in .357 mag and I have been using the Hornady Critical ammo 125 grainers in it and a pachmeyer grip. Shoots and groups pretty well since I am medically disabled and sit in a power chair sometimes. rz625-8
HEADKNOCKER
Member
I now have a model 940 & 642 with a convertion 940 cylinder so it can shoot 9mm para..
You can't hardly go wrong with a J frame Smith..
Here's a Pic of a Trio of J Frames
M649 M940 M642
You can't hardly go wrong with a J frame Smith..
Here's a Pic of a Trio of J Frames
M649 M940 M642
Old Dogs
Great post, I am thinking of doing the same, retired LE since 2004. Recently attended our retiree shoot and noticed three really old coppers shooting wheel guns. A couple of them shot a perfect score and the other wasn't bad either. Man, I would not want to be in a shootout with those guys! TJ
Great post, I am thinking of doing the same, retired LE since 2004. Recently attended our retiree shoot and noticed three really old coppers shooting wheel guns. A couple of them shot a perfect score and the other wasn't bad either. Man, I would not want to be in a shootout with those guys! TJ
OP
Martial Warrior
Member
I now have a model 940 & 642 with a convertion 940 cylinder so it can shoot 9mm para..
You can't hardly go wrong with a J frame Smith..
Here's a Pic of a Trio of J Frames
M649 M940 M642
Now that is something I'd not thought of doing. Is it simply a barrel swap? How much is a conversion barrel to 9mm? Seems like a nice option.
So many LEO retirees here I feel like I'm in good company. I retired 9 years ago after 31 years on Chicago PD. Prior to joining the PD I bought a then new Model 60 that I carried everywhere in Viet Nam, it was reassuring just to always have it on me. I carried that same Model 60 as a backup during my police career. Tonight one of my old retired friends shows up with a Model 640 357 he bought from his son and I have to admit it is a very nice J frame, I'm looking forward to shooting it this weekend. Like anyone who carries you should go with something you shoot well and feel comfortable with, J frames have always been a good choice. For warm weather carry I have retired my Model 60 replacing it with Smiths' new Bodyguard 38, even though the gun weighs only 14 ounces it's actually more comfortable to shoot with hot loads. Cudos to S&W on their first partly polymer revolver. Anyone thinking about a J frame should give one of these a look. And to all you retirees stay safe and I hope your retirements are as least as long as your careers were. We had a front row seat to the greatest show on earth.
+1 on the model 60. First one bought in 1973. Havent been without a J-Frame since. Currently carry a 442 no-lock in my pocket in the summer and 640 no-lock with CT lazer grips in a galco holster on my belt when the Arizona weather allows.
HEADKNOCKER
Member
Not a Barrel swap but a Cylinder swap..
The diameter of the 38spl & 9mm are so close that it realy doesn't matter .355"-.357"..
I picked up a 940-1 cylinder here on the forum & fit it myself with needle files to the existing hand & it's convertable back to 38spl by removing the end shake screw & swapping the cylinders
A very cool little Airweight 642/942..
Hook686
US Veteran
"
The words Newhall and tragedy became forever synonymous on April 6, 1970. On that day four young California Highway Patrol officers lost their lives in a 4-1/2 minute gun battle that left four women widows and seven children, ranging in age from 9 months to 4 years, without fathers. "
CHP: The Newhall Incident
One of the CHP officers was killed in his attempt at reloading his .357 magnum revolver. It was reported that he had the empty cases in his pocket.
Sometimes 6 is not enough and sometimes four Highway Patrol Officers is not enough. Be real safe out there.
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