S&W 642 IL Failure Today

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surveyor47

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Today 10/1/09, I had an internal lock failure on my S&W 642-2. I was firing my usual 50 rounds per quarter out of this gun. All firing was rapid fire. On my last 2 cylinder loads, I started having trouble pulling the trigger, like getting half way back and then hesitating. Continued firing and checked the gun. Primers set deep. Ejector rod tight. Reloaded. On 2nd or 3rd round rapid fire, the trigger locked up and could not be pulled at all. After several failed pulls, it then operated, hesitaing about half way trough the pull. The next round the gun operated freely. Range session over, the gun operates.

I will send the gun back to S&W. They can either replace the gun with a no-lock or I will sell this gun and replace it with a no lock. This was my concealed carry weapon. It would have gotten me killed when I needed it most. Never again.
 
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I'll be interested in hearing what the resolution to this is.
I just sent my 340PD in for a crack in the yoke and the lock on it never was right. I'm awaiting the outcome on it.
 
Did you pull the sideplate and verify that the lock was self-engaging? How do you know it's the problem?
 
My question exactly. There are a lot of reasons for a cylinder to freeze up. Last year I purchased a 686SSR that locked up tight after about 50 rounds. It was as if the cylinder was welded to the frame. No amount of fiddling with the gun would work. It wasn't the lock, however, it was a defective rebound spring. Was the flag up on your gun's lock? If not, I suspect it was something else that caused the lockup.
 
After the gun malfunctioned at the range, the first thing I did was call S&W. I was told it was impossible to have a problem with the lock and that I probably just didn't handle the gun properly.
I then took it apart, the lock had caused the problem. I added a touch of oil and reassembled, next time out it did it again so I performed a lockectomy.
 
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I fail to understand why S&W does not offer option of no lock for LEO's and why other's do not just take the locks out of the gun.

Currently there is a member here selling a part that fills the hole when removed. removal of lock and installing the "Plug" is simple and only takes a few minutes.

So people fail to understand the effect of lawyers and Congress on manufactures I guess.
 
Sorry you had that happen to you. Glad you were on a range when it did. Regards 18DAI.
 
Sort of makes you wonder if someday some enterprising attorney isn't going to try to say their client, or clients next of kin, isn't trying to sue due to the thing working when it was NOT supposed to?
 
My M60 did the same thing, locking up during rapid fire practice. The flag was at least partially up when my gun locked up, I don't believe that there's a way to tell on a 642 without disassembly. Manipulating the hammer and lock eventually got it to free up again. I called Smith and they insisted that it HAD to be something other than the lock. Not wanting a gap on the left side of the trigger, I popped the sideplate and ground the nub off of the flag. It's worked like a charm ever since.
 
If it was the lock you wouldn't have been able to shoot it. I bet you had carbon under the extractor or cylinder face. Buy a plug for it and remove the flag and go for it :D .
 
My 610 had a 'hitch' in the DA pull since I got it new early this year. It smoothed out a little in time but hot stuff (Double Tap) would lock up the cylinder tight. I notice that since I removed the IL, the hitch seems to be gone.
 
Did you leave the flag in? I took every thing out after mine malfunctioned, and it is much smoother now. It has one of the best SA breaks I have ever seen on a S&W, close to my Dan Wesson model 15 357 for that matter.
 
Thanks guys. No. I did not take the side plate off. Now the foolish thing works. Still havent touched the lock. Its like the vibration or rythm of shooting self activated the lock, part ways, then backed off again.

I have been thinking about the plug, but this is a self defense gun and any modification to the gun is could cause serious legal troubles if the gun is ever used in self defense. I own a S&W57 Mountain Gun with lock and it is not a self defense gun. I plan on buying a plug for it and deactivating its lock permanently.

Overall, it seems cheaper to either buy one of the new NO LOCK 642-1 or a pre lock 640. S&W will certainly fix the gun, but I will never have confidence in it again, so I will have to sell it. Ought to get about $350 out of the deal, which takes the sting out of the new gun price. Still, this gun is an EXCELLENT SHOOTER. I hate to part with it, but I have no use for an unreliable gun, which has to be modified in such a way that some courts might consider me liable for making it reliable. YEAH, I do think that unreliability was the goal.

Carried my SP101 tonight and it really weighs me down. Dont like that. How is the 640 +P 38 Special in the weight and bulk department?
 
I carry a 640 sometimes in a Kramer holster with plus P's. I forget I have it on , but then again I never carried an airweight. I hate the internal locks and I simply can not believe S&W still keeps insisting on using the ridiculous things. It jeopardizes their dependability and it ruins them aesthetically even with a plug. It ruins their guns as far as I am concerned, which is why I have stuck to a collection of LNIB pre locks. Never owned a IL and never will.
 
Friends don't let Friends do S&W Revolvers with locks.
That said I have two S&W that are IL guns.
One, a 625 that was given to me by a good friends widow and the other, a 3 inch Model 60 with adjustable sights and a full lug that I paid $200.00 for NIB. The guy that bought had read up on the ILs and was scared of the gun. He wanted to sell it and I didn't mind buying it for that much. I'll use it one of these days as trading material.

Rule 303
 
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surveyor47,


The simplest method of correcting a misbehaving internal lock is to remove the locking arm or better known as the "flag". Now on your gun, the flag doesn't pop up above next to the hammer when it's on, so it's hard to see by a simple glance while your shooting it, if it's really the lock acting up or not.

I'd recommend you look at the FAQ's in the smithing section and read how to remove the side plate and take out the offending part. At the most it's a 5 minute job to do. On your gun, the tools required are a screw driver and a paper clip for the coil spring. That's it!

My 442 does not have a working lock, yet the lock cylinder is still in the gun.
442.jpg


If you want all the lock parts out of the gun, the gun could look like this. I put the instructions in the smithing section, towards the bottom of the first page.
screwside.jpg


Here are what the lock parts look like
lockparts.jpg


Good luck with it. I don't believe S&W will reply the lock is defective on yours....
 
I don't understand... we don't know what caused the OP's problem - yet 'we' jump on the IL. I don't like the IL - it's like those expensive 'Master Locks' - I don't want to pay for them, either. I am a realist - they are here - and there are too many nice current revolvers to not buy them because of a blemish.

When I dissected my 296, and, years later, my 642-2, I noticed a Sahara dry interior - and some darkness on the frame innards (Fine manufacturing/wear dust.). A flush with aerosol RemOil, thank you WallyWorld, over clean paper towels revealed lots of manufacturing crud in both. The residual lube left by the flush was 'too much', so swipes wiped up a bit. It was hard, but I left the OEM springs in both CCWs. Reassembled, with a drop of oil shared on the axle bearing surfaces on the sideplate, they were both unbelieveably smoother afterwards.

I am betting that your 642-2's tempermental nature is due to crud in the lockwork - even the rebound slide and cylinder bolt can be problematic. An easy way to tell if the IL's Achille's heel is defective is completed with the key - can you feel a slight resistance as you turn to lock - or unlock? If it is easy to turn and flops, you have an IL spring missing/broken, the only part known to fail (Any coil spring can fail.). Even though the 642 is an Airweight, it's weight is 25+% greater - and the recoil energy imparted by the hottest +P ammo is well less than half of the amount a .357M imparts on an Al/Sc snubby, much less a 329PD. Even with significant limp-wristing, I don't think the physics would impart enough energy to the IL to jump the spring-loaded lock. Admittedly, IL failures are most common in the 329PD using hot Magnums - and 'limp wristing'. Next most common occurence is after a revolver was dropped. Duh - we all know what an improper hold will do to even a 1911 - and drop one? Yeow!

Let's get some more facts before we barbeque the IL here.

Stainz
 
Stainz said:
I don't understand... we don't know what caused the OP's problem - yet 'we' jump on the IL. I don't like the IL -

When I dissected my642-2, I noticed a Sahara dry interior - and some darkness on the frame innards (Fine manufacturing/wear dust.). A flush with aerosol RemOil, thank you WallyWorld, over clean paper towels revealed lots of manufacturing crud in both. The residual lube left by the flush was 'too much', so swipes wiped up a bit. It was hard, but I left the OEM springs in both CCWs. Reassembled, with a drop of oil shared on the axle bearing surfaces on the sideplate, they were both unbelieveably smoother afterwards.

I am betting that your 642-2's tempermental nature is due to crud in the lockwork - even the rebound slide and cylinder bolt can be problematic.

Let's get some more facts before we barbeque the IL here.

Stainz
Click to expand...

Not necessarily "facts" but end-user experience. My 642-2 also bound up after 1.5k-2k dry fires. Upon inspection i saw a sticking point on the farme/trigger area. Internally I cleaned it up as Stainz did, deburred the trigger/frame trigger well and gave a light polish to rebound slide/other bearing surfaces...and with a light relube- all was well. Perfect as matter of fact.
Not being one to leave well enough alone I added the Wolffe spring kit - 8# hammer and 14# rebound. A keeper for sure.
(and then I removed the flag ;) )
 
Bullseye Smith said:
If it was the lock you wouldn't have been able to shoot it. I bet you had carbon under the extractor or cylinder face. Buy a plug for it and remove the flag and go for it :D .
Click to expand...

Bullseye,
The extractor and cylinder face are virtually carbon free. No residue at all. I dont think that is the issue.

I like the idea and look of the plug and want one for my S&W57 Mountain Gun; however, the 642-2 is a concealed carry weapon and from what Im told, the laws of my state would increase liability if I modify the gun. CCW guns have to be as stock. This is not much of an issue with the S&W57 Mouintain Gun, which is primarily a sporting handgun, very likely to be used on wild hog. A collector I know has offered to sell me a pre-lock 640 +P 38 at a reasonable price and I think that is the best way to address the 642 issue. The 642 will go on consignment after it is repaired. Too bad, because my gun is surprisingly accurate at 25 yards and I really like the gun.

I spoke to S&W this morning. They are going to send me a Fedex shipping label. They told me that the likely cause was a cracked hammer pivot (which makes no sence to me). With any luck, it is part of the frame and will require replacement of the entire frame.

I would like to purchase a plug for my S&W 57 Mountain Gun.
 
I think this was mentioned earlier, but I'd ask if they can replace it with a no lock. Never hurts to ask and its free. :)
 
Stainz,
The 642-2 has been my CCW for 4 years. I take it to the range for 50 rounds of practice 2 or 3 times per year. At most, this gun has had maybe 600-800 rounds through it. It has never had an issue. I have been fairly skeptical of the IL rantings and railings. Most of my revolvers are pre-lock S&W, with a couple of Rugers mixed in and I have regularly shot these guns for 35 years. I have never ever felt a trigger do what I felt yestarday. And like a ghost, the gun now dry fires perfectly. Recoil and rapid fire seem to be the issue. I was really hammering the rounds into the target (with very good accuracy, some of the best I have ever achieved) and then, I cant pull the trigger through. I release the trigger and pull again, but this time the trigger doesnt move at all. I try again and the trigger gets about half way and sticks, I pull hard and it goes through, firing the gun. No more ammo. I took it outside to the rangemaster and it was still stiff half way through the pull and he says "Yep, its the lock. We see that happen all the time. We have security guards in here all the time and their new S&Ws are having all kinds of trouble." I can vouch for the fact that I have seen new S&W 686s lock up due to loose ejector rod, but never a lock. This is the first time I have seen anything like this.
 
The simple fact is this is another revolver problem blamed on the lock without any evidence whatsoever. Doesn't even sound like a lock problem. The choir nod their heads and say "Amen" without a thought going through the gray matter that's supposed to be inside. Half of them have never looked in a S&W revolver anyway, and haven't a clue how the mechanism or the locks work. At one time there was a lengthy thread on supposed lock failures, most of them as convincing as this one. It's disappeared, hopefully into the trash. I don't like the lock. My three IL revolvers have modified flags, so the things aren't a concern. The mindless herd response to reported lock problems, however unlikely, just gets irritating. Rant over.
 
surveyor47 said:
They told me that the likely cause was a cracked hammer pivot
Click to expand...


S&W just makes me laugh! I told you so! :D

They have thousands of lock guns out there, If they would admit to a problem, and were forced to recall all these guns to do a reengineering and repair it would bankrupt the company.

So ssshhhh , the hammer pivot is cracked, yea thats what you tell them.:D I can't locate the pivot in my parts book, call them back I need a parts number. Thanks!
 
The facts are that I have never encountered a problem like this in over 35 years of regularly shooting pre lock S&W revolvers. Not once. I am not going to void the warranty by opening up this revolver and start fiddling with things. S&W voids warranties on the slimest of excuses and I am not going there.

It occured to me that perhaps I was not fully releasing the trigger, hammering those rounds down range. I made sure at the time that the trigger was fully released.

I checked under the ejector star and it is free of carbon or debris.

The condition seems to start with a high rate of fire, like the vibration is causing the lock to engage and then back off. The feel of the malfunction was exactly the way it feels when the lock is engaged. The trigger simply wont move. When I was able to complete the trigger pull, there was major resistance about half way through and extremely rough spot.

The gun fuctioned flawlessly until the last 3 rounds of the box.

So, I dont think that this is a baseless IL allegation. Perhaps you are a gunsmith. qualified to work on S&W revolvers. I am not. According to S&W, the hammer pivot pin may be cracked (whatever that is). If so, that sounds like a major malfunction, which will hopefully warrant scrapping of the gun. Whatever it is, it is like a ghost that disappers as soon as the gun goes empty.
 
Tap the gun on the table, to set the locking arm, then dry fire it. Then tap it again upside down and dry fire it.

If it hangs up while you tap it upside down, it's not the pivot.
 
My first 6.5" 24-3 had been a 20 yr 'safe queen' when I bought it in early '03. I was so happy to find one in obviously ANIB condition, no turn line, even, I didn't look at the finish - paper towels revealed fine rust - WD-40 got most of it - then a coat of wax - better, but still 'flat' - looked like old Parkerizing. Dry firing was fine - live fire, not so good. Three bangs and the trigger would partially pull - then as hard as could be - release, wiggle cylinder, hammer, trigger - fire three to six rounds fine, then hangs up. No rhyme or reason - odd number/even number.

It took total dissection to find the spattered brazing remnants under the hammer, trigger rebound, and cylinder bolt. What kind of QC existed in '83? I removed the material - chiseling and buffing with my Foredom. This was 3/03. I touched my first S&W, a new 625-7 MG in .45 Colt 9/02 - dissecting the lockwork in 10/02 - after a local 'smith's 'trigger job'. It had severe stacking - and a dragging feeling upon trigger release - far worse than it was new a month earlier. He had bent the hammer spring and clipped the rebound spring. A pair of Wolff's springs and I had a PC Shop contender. My brave nature was earned after years of new Rugers - delivered as 'works in progress'. That 24-3 was nearly as nice as the new Heritage 6.5" 24 I had just bought - except for the finish - That Heritage was a beauty.

I've never had an operational fault with my other S&Ws - all '01 and later, save a no-box 625-6 MG from '96 - with more bent/clipped springs. Oh, the 696 had a loose ejector rod, but that's not much. That '83 24-3 - it was easy to see why the guy had it on consignment. Now, for those who say they don't make them like they oce did, I say a hearty 'Amen!' and am most thankful, too. My oldest S&W was a turkey!

I have slowed down on my 'plinking' with that 642 - I know it's ammo count is over 2 - maybe 3 thousand. I also don't trust it to have a long life - and for no other reason than the alloy frame. Mine, a -2, is my pocket protector - and I have confidence that it is in fine shape.

S&W Customer Service is top drawer - they will treat you fairly. To be blunt, I redistributed a 629MG into pieces it wasn't assembled from. Their first question - was I shooting reloads - was answered with a simple reply - their test cartridge was it's only commercial ammo. They picked up the remnants on their dime, tested the metal, and agreed with my, and Hodgdon's, suggested scenario - carbon/lead fouling from shooting Russians & Specials all day had prevented a 300gr LSWC in a Magnum case, with a mild load, from leaving the crimp - a 'stuck' bullet, essentially, and a pressure spike resulted. The worst part? It was all my fault! They replaced the MG with a new 4" 629 for a song - which I am still singing. They will treat you fairly.

Stainz
 
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surveyor47 said:
The facts are that I have never encountered a problem like this in over 35 years of regularly shooting pre lock S&W revolvers. Not once. I am not going to void the warranty by opening up this revolver and start fiddling with things. S&W voids warranties on the slimest of excuses and I am not going there.

It occured to me that perhaps I was not fully releasing the trigger, hammering those rounds down range. I made sure at the time that the trigger was fully released.

I checked under the ejector star and it is free of carbon or debris.

The condition seems to start with a high rate of fire, like the vibration is causing the lock to engage and then back off. The feel of the malfunction was exactly the way it feels when the lock is engaged. The trigger simply wont move. When I was able to complete the trigger pull, there was major resistance about half way through and extremely rough spot.

The gun fuctioned flawlessly until the last 3 rounds of the box.

So, I dont think that this is a baseless IL allegation. Perhaps you are a gunsmith. qualified to work on S&W revolvers. I am not. According to S&W, the hammer pivot pin may be cracked (whatever that is). If so, that sounds like a major malfunction, which will hopefully warrant scrapping of the gun. Whatever it is, it is like a ghost that disappers as soon as the gun goes empty.
Click to expand...

Surveyor,

Just a few hours ago I picked a NIB, right from the distributor 442-2 with no lock. I have been looking for either a 642 or 442 no lock for over a year.

I simply lucked into this one. I stopped at a gunshop on my way home from skeet shooting. I talked to owner of the small shop, concerning if he had seen any, etc He made several calls to various distributors while I was there. No luck.

I got home and message from dealer on my voice mail, that one distributor had called back and said he had one 442 with no lock. I immediately called dealer back and said order it. Fortunately, it was still there.

This will be my third airweigh no lock. I also have a 642 no lock I bought used from same dealer 2-3 years ago. I have one of first +P versions of the 442 to come out, which were of course no lock.

In short I had time to wait until I got what I - big I here - wanted not what other people said I should be satisfied with. Are the criticisms of the internal lock justified? I don't know, but I don't want to be thinking about the lock jamming, esp at a critical moment.

My advise is get what you need now. If that means modifying lock gun, so be it. But continue to look for what YOU want.

From my experience best to go to small shops where you can talk to the owner. In my experence they will call distributors, often while you are there, and follow up. The employees just blow you off and don't want to bother in larger stores.

Good luck in finding what YOU want.
 
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