S&W DA Marked JWH John wesley Hardin need help?

[dinguss]

Ok this is a strange one a S&W DA model 3 in 44 Russian.
The gun came up to Canada i bought it and when i took off the grips and cleaned the crud and grease that had built up i found theses old period correct JWH marks.
After reading some stuff from Leon C Metz and finding out this is exactly how harding marked his guns is there any chance this could be one of his last guns.
Made in 1893 or 94 so before hardin was killed.
I have found out its orignal grips were pearl and the gun was nickled.
The Serial number on the frame barrel and barrel latch all match and were not cleaned up or looked at in ages. the latch screw looked like it had never been outa the gun.
Any help on this and who to contact would be great.
A S&W factory letter will just say shiped to new york like every other one ive got but theses intails look period correct.
Serial number is in the 36000s






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[glowe]

Anything is possible, but there are probably thousands of people that owned S&Ws with those initials. The SWCA database has 2 - 44 DAs close to your serial number. 35524 shipped in 1897 and 38699 shipped in 1901. Neither are close to Hardin's death in 1895. We know the S&W guns did not leave the factory in order, but all listed examples in the database after the 38XXX serial number left after 1901 and you have to go back to the late 20,000 serial numbers to find any that shipped around 1894/1895.

There is documentation that Hardin owned a Second Model American with sn 25274 and he also owned a 44 DA with no serial number ever reported.

Bottom line is that it is possible, but without valid authentication, there is no premium to be had on only the 3 initials.

 

[dinguss]

Thanks for that info this guns full serial number is 36845
Pearl griped nickled 6.5 inch barreled gun with a laynard ring threaded hole in the butt strap which takes out the 8 in the serial number but because the barrel numbers match we know the full serial number 36845
I knew the Date of shipping would help flesh out the fact if it could be his gun or not because of his death in 95
One thing if the guns were manufactured in 1894 or 1895 why would S&W wait so long to ship them?
or were they made in 1897

 

[glowe]

I located some additional information in a book by John Walter, "The Guns That Won the West" on Hardin. It conflicts with the information I had supplied earlier, in that it states that Hardin's "American" was actually an Old Old Model Russian, but the serial number given matches earlier sources.

The book also states that Hardin owned a 44 DA with serial number 352. Most of the revolvers he owned seem to have been Colt's, with only 2 S&W mentioned.

As I said earlier, S&W did not ship their stock in serial number order, so any stock item could sit around for quite awhile before being grabbed by the shippers. The serial numbers recorded in the SWCA database indicate that this model did go out in pretty much sn order until the early 1900s, when demand dropped off in favor of the new hand ejectors.

A factory letter could be worth the cost for this one, since there is always the chance that the revolver was shipped to an individual, or maybe a local hardware store in the area where Hardin lived.

 

[dinguss]

OK thats what i thought to,, nothing to loose by getting a factory letter.
The marklings just look to old to be 1970s fake stampings the edges are not raised the nickle is still there to.
Tho im sure they faked his JWH marking right after his death to so could have been stamped in the early 1900s and still look old, im a realist so i know the odds its a hardin gun is slim to none but im gona have to check before i pass this gun along or sell it.
Did they ship nickled guns with pearl grips to from the factory ?

 

[deadin]

Even if the odds were good that it IS a Hardin gun, without provenance the odds are meaningless.

 

[glowe]

44 DA was available in both blue and nickel. Standard stocks were either black hard rubber or walnut. In my 1900 catalog, replacement standard stocks were $0.30 each, but they a quite a bit more expensive today. Pearl stocks were available for all S&W revolvers at an extra cost. Until the late 1890s or early 1900s, pearl stocks did not have the S&W medallion, but after that date S&W advertised that their original pearl stocks from the factory all had the S&W medallion. So you could have original stocks or an aftermarket replacement set. Check the inside of the stocks to see if you can find any pencil marks that might be the serial number, since that was the way the factory kept track of their fitted stocks.

A factory letter will also tell you the exact configuration as the gun left the factory, so it will list finish and stocks.

 

[dinguss]

44 DA was available in both blue and nickel. Standard stocks were either black hard rubber or walnut. In my 1900 catalog, replacement standard stocks were $0.30 each, but they a quite a bit more expensive today. Pearl stocks were available for all S&W revolvers at an extra cost. Until the late 1890s or early 1900s, pearl stocks did not have the S&W medallion, but after that date S&W advertised that their original pearl stocks from the factory all had the S&W medallion. So you could have original stocks or an aftermarket replacement set. Check the inside of the stocks to see if you can find any pencil marks that might be the serial number, since that was the way the factory kept track of their fitted stocks.

A factory letter will also tell you the exact configuration as the gun left the factory, so it will list finish and stocks.

Thanks for that info eh, I will get the Letter once i get the pearl stocks back so i can take pics, that should be later this week the factory letter can take a month or longer but im requesting one for sure.
i was told by a S&W guy that it could well have been made in the early 90s so am not giveing up yet tho the shipping dates is whats gona count here.
I know its a hard thing to prove regardless of letters and such but if the dates and where it was shiped to all line up theres at least a chance.

 

[Skeetr57]

According to what I have read, all number 3 frames, both single and double action were completed before 1899. So, because they were cataloged until round 1912, and were not shipped in SN order, shipping dates may be all over the place.

 

[opoefc]

Dinguss, .44DA, serial number 36845, was made in 1896, over a year after John Wesley Hardin was shot and killed. This is according to the factory production log for the .44DAs. I don't know when it was shipped. Roy Jinks can tell you that with a factory shipping letter. Ed.

 

[glowe]

Dinguss, .44DA, serial number 36845, was made in 1896, over a year after John Wesley Hardin was shot and killed. This is according to the factory production log for the .44DAs. I don't know when it was shipped. Roy Jinks can tell you that with a factory shipping letter. Ed.

Ed, that fits perfectly with the ship date as extrapolated from the database. Interesting that the DAs in the database were shipped in almost perfect chronological order until after 1901, so they must have had decent sales until the HEs went on the market in the early 1900s..

 

[jmace57]

Please let us know what you find out. I am kin to JWH through my great grandmother Prudence Hardin Nash down in south Texas.

 

[dinguss]

Well the above posts are both incorrect the serial number 36845 was shiped from the factory in oct 1895 not 1896.
Now heres a twist the Serial number in the butt strap is missing one number because of a laynard ring hole but the number i gave was me reading the tiny serial numbers in the latch area of the barrel it could be serial number 36645 i will post a picture the numbers are small if the 8s have the same bottom as a 6 then its really hard to tell the photo makes it look like and 8 .

The stamps they used on the barrels were smaller than the ones in the but strap.
Tho it looks like and 8 i need to see another gun that has a 8 in this area so i can compare the stampings. to see if the 8s are nice rounded 8s like the butt strap numbers have or if there like 6s .




Here you can see the problem with reading the butt serial number.
Anyone got a photo of a 8 from a S&W DA barrel ? the 8s are difrent in the but than the barrels i think.

 

[glowe]

Well the above posts are both incorrect the serial number 36845 was shiped from the factory in oct 1895 not 1896.

How did you get the ship date a year eariler from a number that is higher than you originally reported? What is the serial number on the back of the cylinder and the latch? Besides, Ed's date of 1896 was the build date, not the ship date. My 1897 date was the ship date.

I agree that your number is 36845 on the barrel frame.

 

[dinguss]

:EDIT ::: I got the info from Roy Frist he checked 36645 then 36845 i forgot the frist email i gave him i asked about 36645 which is the oct 95 shiped gun
the other gun the 36845 was shiped in the 19000s.
So that mix up that was my fault i forgot he had both posible serial numbers.

The Latch has only the 3 last numbers which look like 845
The rest are worn off. the barrel has the only decent markings.
The cylinder is a diffrent number so it was changed.
Oh well i can sell it now with out feeling bad.
Of course i wont try and pass it off as a JWH piece.
Thats why i came here to find out for sure.

Thanks for your guys help eh.