S&W for carry

wnr700: Good luck fitting a Glock 19 in your pocket! ;)

Seriously, in my un-scientific research, I found that 97 out of 100 people that get a permit and start out with belt carry are not carrying anything by the end of the year.

Your comments about getting in shape couldn't be more true! Most of us spend tons of time ruminating over this gun or that, this ammo or that, but if it ever came down to a fight, we couldn't run 10 yards to cover without passing out!

All good points.

Photoman - I think your numbers are high (I know it was just an example), but your point is valid.

IMO, the rub is that many novices buy J Frames for carry - and rarely dry fire or live fire. The J REQUIRES practice and some level of dedication in order to shoot well.

I think the vast majority of first time and novice shooters would shoot a Glock 19 better than a J - but will they actually carry one . . .
 
I'd recommend a J-Frame revolver and specifically a S&W model 649. It is small; you have access to a hammer if you need to cock it; there is nothing to snag on clothing; it's completely stainess steel so there is no finish to wear off; it is resistant to sweat and it is weather resistant; it is a little heavier than the Airweight, but a little more weight also means a little less recoil and lastly, you will never have to worry about feed problems or jamming. A wheel gun is extremely reliable!! ;) I also recommend you shoot just .38 hollow points in these guns as it is far more pleasant to shoot than the .357 Magnum round and it will still get the job done.

I got the grips pictured below from: http://www.cdnninvestments.com/smwejfrrobud.html

930686869_QVSvR-XL.jpg
 
Last edited:
So what I'ld like to know is what you all might recommend as a "handy" S&W revolver. I shot a light weight S&W revolver in my CHL class that was made of st...... something or other. With 357 mag rounds in it, it nearly broke my hand as well as the owners. So im leaning toward a 38 Spl.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

You really do know how to start trouble don't you ??? Just kidding, but as you can see there are about as many opinions as options when it comes to carrying.
My 2 cents says to go several gunshops and take a look at what catches your eye. Don't pass on older / used guns as long as they are in good condition.
LIke everyone is saying .... look at the snubs .... .38's as well as the .357's. Being in Texas, gunshops shouldn't be real hard to find .... and stainless would be a nice plus too but not neccessary as long as its cleaned properly and regularly.
I'm 5'6" usually around 170 or so & I carry a snub nose model 28 in winter, I've also got a model 66 in 2 1/1" ( they're stainless) for all seasons, and a model 36 for summer or just to grab something quick on the way out the door. My daughter shoots all of my guns including the .357's. She's maybe 5'1" and around 100 pounds and they don't give her any trouble.
An N or K frame in .357 IMHO shouldn't break your hand, and a model 36 with +p's would give you all the firepower you would need. 5 well placed shots always trump 15 sprayed all over hells half acre.
I carry in holsters on my belt instead of IWB and I carry in vests. I pack a couple of pretty good sized guns discreetly and comfortably.
Experiment, and you'll find what works for you. Just like everything else it pretty much individual preference.
Good luck ... & welcome .... the guys & ladies on here are great resources and always willing to help.
 
Snubs are a dream to carry

I would rather sacrifice convience for confidence and competence.

It's one reason I bought a K frame Model 18 to go with my Model 64 and Model 19. Cheap practice, breaking down things to a simple level, hoping to improve and then add convience to the mix.

Generally I break out a J frame when I walk my dog in our gated community.

But until that Tarus Model 85 is punching consistent groups at 7 and 20 yards, I will mostly stick with a K frame.

That said, Galco makes a holseter that fits perfectly in the back pocket of my 550 Levi jeans.

With a 442 and a long untucked shirt it is perfect. Also, fits ideally in a coat pocket.

Last week visited a local gun shop and was impressed with laser/Ruger snub.

If you can do your part, an airweight snub is a dream.
 
I carry a S&W m10 that has been beadblasted parkerized now for my ccw. My 3 Glock 9mms are all up for sale. Going back to revolvers from now on. rz625-8
 
I'd recommend a J-Frame revolver and specifically a S&W model 649. It is small; you have access to a hammer if you need to cock it; there is nothing to snag on clothing; it's completely stainess steel so there is no finish to wear off; it is resistant to sweat and it is weather resistant; it is a little heavier than the Airweight, but a little more weight also means a little less recoil and lastly, you will never have to worry about feed problems or jamming. A wheel gun is extremely reliable!! ;) I also recommend you shoot just .38 hollow points in these guns as it is far more pleasant to shoot than the .357 Magnum round and it will still get the job done.



I got the grips pictured below from: Smith & Wesson J Frame, Round Butt Deluxe Coco Bolo Grips New

930686869_QVSvR-XL.jpg

I agree. I have a 649-5. It's light enough to carry with no weight problems and has enough horsepower for 99% of the self defense situations I will likely find myself in.
 
I have used just about every common variation S&W has made over the past 40 years. There is nothing wrong with a good J-frame 2" revolver. For me, ammunition selection is critical.

I have an old Model 37 Airweight Chief Special, about 15 ounces. In that I use only standard velocity ammunition because of recoil and muzzle blast/flash issues.

I also have a Model 649 stainless steel, about 21 ounces. I have shot +P loads in it with no problems, but I prefer standard velocity stuff.

Out of a 2" tube there will be remarkably little difference in actual performance between hot-rod ammunition and standard velocity stuff, and that difference comes with big increases in muzzle blast and flash (neither of which is conducive to good shooting under stress).

Quoting from CHIEF38:

CHRONOGRAPHING 38 SPECIAL SELF DEFENSE AMMO

I have just conducted some chronograph testing of my own using a S & W model 60 (2" barrel) and a bunch of different Factory Loads that are typically used for self defense purposes. The equipment I used was the Master Chrony that I have always found to be reliable, and the weather on the test date was about 55 degrees and sunny. I have to say that after seeing the results with my own eyes, I was BLOWN AWAY! The results below were an average of 10 shots out of a 2" S & W Chief Special.

ALL FACTORY AMMO:

Winchester 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load) ............751 fps
Remington 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load)...............746 fps
Winchester 158 Gr. SWC Standard Non +P Load .....692 fps
Federal 158 Gr. LRN Standard Non +P Load............701 fps
Speer Gold Dot 135 Gr. JHP +P ("short bbl. load")...880 fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. +P SWCHP-Gas Check...........1,025fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. Std. Non +P 158 Gr. SWCHP.....835fps

What really surprised me is how dismal the FBI loadings were! I have serious doubts that they would even expand at the above velocities, and as far as the standard pressure loads go (from Federal & Winchester), I would classify them as plinking loads only. The Buffalo Bore ammo actually performed better than the company advertises. Their +P loading in my opinion is nothing sort of FANTASTIC!!! Over 1,000 feet per second from a 2" gun. Their Non +P loading actually performed better than the Winchester and Remington +P ammo. Not only were their velocities incredible, but the recoil was not bad at all. In my M60 Chief's Special (all steel with wooden grips & a Tyler "T" grip) which weighs in at 20 ounces, it was very controllable, and point of impact was the same as point of aim. The Speer Gold Dot ammo was quite good as well. Their loading averaged 880 fps which again form a 2" gun is very respectable.

What really gets me is that the big 3 ammo companies that have been in the business for many many years, have resources up the wazoo, lots of money for R & D, and they are producing self defense ammunition with sub standard performance. For the past 20 years I have carried the so-called FBI load in my Chief, but no more. I will now be carrying Buffalo Bore's +P 158 Gr. bullet, and I will probably use either the Gold Dot 135 Gr.or the Buffalo Bore standard 158Gr. in my Model 37 "Airweight".
 
I carry a 640-1 in this TX summer because I throw it in my pocket. Usually no holster required. It is stainless and chambered for .357 I carry .38 sp +p. It's heavy enough so I barely feel the recoil and follow up shots are almost always quicker. Light enough to throw in a pocket and sometimes forget it's there. good luck!

Nothing wrong with a revolver as a carry weapon. ANY sidearm you carry, in a civilian capacity, is a "fire as you retreat" weapon anyways. FOR ME, 5 shot's in my J frame or 10 in my HK is not a concern when I am firing only to relieve myself from the situation.
 
Model 36 pocket carry

I have to agree with the majority of posterS here. The Smith and Wesson J-frame is the way to go. I carry my old Model 36 Chief Special everywhere. It never gets left behind because it is so comfortably easy to carry and conceal. I carry mine in a front pocket holster. Fits well, even in jeans. Really hot and humid now in New England, but the Model 36 rides just fine in lightweight shorts pocket. The little five-shot J-frame has few drawbacks for concealed carry and reliability. It absolutely meets the first requirement for an armed encounter....#1 HAVE A GUN.
 
Quoting from CHIEF38:

CHRONOGRAPHING 38 SPECIAL SELF DEFENSE AMMO

I have just conducted some chronograph testing of my own using a S & W model 60 (2" barrel) and a bunch of different Factory Loads that are typically used for self defense purposes. The equipment I used was the Master Chrony that I have always found to be reliable, and the weather on the test date was about 55 degrees and sunny. I have to say that after seeing the results with my own eyes, I was BLOWN AWAY! The results below were an average of 10 shots out of a 2" S & W Chief Special.

ALL FACTORY AMMO:

Winchester 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load) ............751 fps
Remington 158 Gr. SWCHP +P (FBI load)...............746 fps
Winchester 158 Gr. SWC Standard Non +P Load .....692 fps
Federal 158 Gr. LRN Standard Non +P Load............701 fps
Speer Gold Dot 135 Gr. JHP +P ("short bbl. load")...880 fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. +P SWCHP-Gas Check...........1,025fps
Buffalo Bore 158 Gr. Std. Non +P 158 Gr. SWCHP.....835fps

What really surprised me is how dismal the FBI loadings were! I have serious doubts that they would even expand at the above velocities, and as far as the standard pressure loads go (from Federal & Winchester), I would classify them as plinking loads only. The Buffalo Bore ammo actually performed better than the company advertises. Their +P loading in my opinion is nothing sort of FANTASTIC!!! Over 1,000 feet per second from a 2" gun. Their Non +P loading actually performed better than the Winchester and Remington +P ammo. Not only were their velocities incredible, but the recoil was not bad at all. In my M60 Chief's Special (all steel with wooden grips & a Tyler "T" grip) which weighs in at 20 ounces, it was very controllable, and point of impact was the same as point of aim. The Speer Gold Dot ammo was quite good as well. Their loading averaged 880 fps which again form a 2" gun is very respectable.

What really gets me is that the big 3 ammo companies that have been in the business for many many years, have resources up the wazoo, lots of money for R & D, and they are producing self defense ammunition with sub standard performance. For the past 20 years I have carried the so-called FBI load in my Chief, but no more. I will now be carrying Buffalo Bore's +P 158 Gr. bullet, and I will probably use either the Gold Dot 135 Gr.or the Buffalo Bore standard 158Gr. in my Model 37 "Airweight".

Interesting results. I wish you would have measured some 124 grain variants, including the relatively new Hornady Critical Defense ammo.
 
A few observations...

A 158gr SWC at 700 fps is certainly no "plinking" load. That would probably have about 30" of penetration in ballistic gel. Would make an excellent field load and I wouldn't feel unarmed with it for defense.

The "FBI" loads have always been in the 750 fps range out of snubs and rarely more than 850-900 out of a 4" gun. Excellent street record.

Shooting a 158gr bullet at 1000+ fps out of a 15-20 ounce gun is absolutely no fun and, I dare say, most could not handle it well. Not recommended for defense use, in my opinion, if carrying a J frame with boot grips.
 
Two 357M M640's. Both ported. Porting really helps to keep the muzzle down and on target.

DSC_1553.jpg


Carried a lot. No airweights here, I don't like what they do to my right hand.
 
Interesting results. I wish you would have measured some 124 grain variants, including the relatively new Hornady Critical Defense ammo.

I'm grateful that CHIEF38 spend his own $ to chrono what was available to him....if he went into every variant it could get REALLY expensive!
 
Interesting comments on short-barrel ammo choices. My choice is Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots for my 442. No, it's not a target gun and yes, it is just not pleasant to shoot any more +P rounds than needed to learn the gun.

This topic raises a curiousity question about Glaser Safety Slugs. :eek: Fifteen - twenty years ago this ammo was praised by some magazine "experts" as the ultimate house ammo. Theory then was that the 125 gr (or was it 110?) would fragment upon impact with a wall, glass etc. and therefore would not enter your neighbor's apartment or go down the street and create a lawsuit. As carry ammo, it would CYA by defragmenting on anything it would hit if you missed the bad guy in a street altercation. I long since have lost interest, but now I understand that it is being touted as the ultimate self defense round because of its terminal ballistics in - gelatin :eek:

I would not consider this round for any use in light of the current ammo choices, but I thought it might be entertaining to hear some informed comments.
 
Two 357M M640's. Both ported. Porting really helps to keep the muzzle down and on target.

DSC_1553.jpg


Carried a lot. No airweights here, I don't like what they do to my right hand.

Looks like Mag-Na-Port work! Had my SP101 done by them...made an uncontrollable weapon(for me) much easier to use.

P.S. this photo reminds me of the expression "New York Reload"....anyone other than me utilize this type of "Reload"?
 
Last edited:
Interesting comments on short-barrel ammo choices. My choice is Speer 135gr +P Gold Dots for my 442. No, it's not a target gun and yes, it is just not pleasant to shoot any more +P rounds than needed to learn the gun.

This topic raises a curiousity question about Glaser Safety Slugs. :eek: Fifteen - twenty years ago this ammo was praised by some magazine "experts" as the ultimate house ammo. Theory then was that the 125 gr (or was it 110?) would fragment upon impact with a wall, glass etc. and therefore would not enter your neighbor's apartment or go down the street and create a lawsuit. As carry ammo, it would CYA by defragmenting on anything it would hit if you missed the bad guy in a street altercation. I long since have lost interest, but now I understand that it is being touted as the ultimate self defense round because of its terminal ballistics in - gelatin :eek:

I would not consider this round for any use in light of the current ammo choices, but I thought it might be entertaining to hear some informed comments.

Glasers are an unknown quanity, since there aren't any LEO's that carry them, we're left to gelatin tests. I carry the Speer Short Barrel GD's or Buffalo Bore (standard)158Gr. LSWCHP. BB's +P is just too much to get hold of in a 15oz. gun. I have their 158Gr. +P LSWCHP GC for my undoor SP101.
 
I am anything but a Glock fan, but I can't agree with your statement. Glocks don't discharge themselves, the fire when someone pulls the trigger. Its true that they don't have a manual safety or in most cases a heavy trigger. The operator has to be a good gun handler and follow the safety rules. Assuming he does, the gun will only fire when he wants it to. If he doesn't, then he can cause it to fire when he doesn't intend to, by pulling the trigger. That is true with any gun, its just easier to foul up with a light trigger gun that doesn't have a manual safety.

I'd much rather have something like a 4516 than a Glock for a carry gun, but the Glock design isn't unsafe, it just requires the user to follow correct safety procedures.



In my experience (14 years and counting as a cop), crime guns are usually trash. Lorcin, Davis, Bryco, Hi-Point, etc. Bad guys rarely carry spare ammunition (and often not even fully loaded magazines in their guns), and I've never encountered one wearing a holster. When thugs win armed encounters it seems to be for one of two reasons. One of which is as you stated, they know they are going to act before their victim does. The victim has to react to a threat that they may well have never seen coming. The other reason is more common, thugs these days live in a culture of violence. Most of them have seen people killed on the street, been in shootings, many have been shot and shot at other people (usually rival thugs). They have the experience, and that experience makes them sure of themselves. On the other hand, most honest citizens don't have the experience. Most have never shot at anyone, been shot at, or been shot. The majority have never had cause to draw a weapon and point it at someone. Others are hesitant to use their weapons for fear of the legal consequences (and the bad guys don't care about the legal consequences) or are unsure when they can legally use force, threaten force, etc. Good people are at a serious disadvantage, not because they might not choose to carry a bottomless magazine semi-automatic, but because they don't have the experience of the street.



The evolution of handguns isn't necessarily linked to the shotcomings of the pervious generation of weapons. SA revolvers might not seem like ideal weapons for defensive use these days. However, there are a large number of folks out there (cowboy action shooters for the most part) that can handle a SA revolver well enough to make it a serious defensive weapon in these "times of the bottomless bottomfeeder". There was a gentleman open carrying a SA revolver in a store in Richmond, VA sometime in 2008 or 2009 that got into a shootout with a robber. During the course of the shootout (and before the robber was disabled) the trigger on the gentleman's revolver somehow got broken off when he dove for cover. After the trigger broke off he was still able to fire his revolver and stop the robber (who eventually died of his wounds). What other handgun could the gentleman have been carrying that he could have successfully fired without a trigger? None of the "better" designs for sure.

There will always be disagreement in the auto vs. revolver debate, and we won't solve it here. However, the reason the debate exists is because the revolver is still a defensible choice for self-protection. The 1911 and the Glock are both fine defensive pistols, but that doesn't make them the only sane or effective choices. Any quality handgun can serve the defensive role, and all have strong and weak points.



The reasons for police departments movement to semi-automatics is complex and varied, but in general the switch happened because it could, not because it had to. Cops like toys, and new toys are better than old toys. A number of high profile, but also very unusual, incidents happened in the mid to late 1980s that prompted the switch to semi-automatics. Those incidents gave the folks in charge an excuse to get new toys, so they did. We heard a lot in the 80s (and we still hear it today, though not as often) that the "police are outgunned". We usually hear it from someone trying to sell something, be it the media or government selling gun control, or the police powers that be selling spending taxpayer money on new handguns.

The real answer to the seldom encountered (but sometimes real) outgunning of the police was long guns, not large capacity pistols. Of course long guns required more training, more money, and more "selling" to the public since rifles are seen as military weapons. A prime example of this is the Bank of America shootout in 1997. Two guys with automatic rifles held off scores of officers armed with 16 shot 9mm pistols for quite a while. How did having high capacity pistols help the officers? Would officers with .357 Magnum revolvers and M1 Garands have done better? We hear talk about the police being "outgunned" we get shown pictures of seized long guns, submachineguns, shotguns, etc. or we are told stories about criminals (like in Miami in 1986) killing multiple LEOs with long guns. The solution to an opponent armed with a rifle is a rifle and some friends with rifles, not large capacity pistols.

One has to wonder why American police dumped accurate, reliable, effective sidearms wholesale and spent tax dollars on new, often less effective per shot handguns? Wouldn't that money have been better spent on more ammunition for training and patrol rifles? The .38 Special and .357 Magnum worked quite well for decades. If given the option of keeping my .38 Special or .357 Magnum and getting a quality patrol rifle, or getting a brand new 9mm or .45 automatic, I've have kept the .38 or .357 and taken the rifle.

None of that has anything to do with citizen CCW. Of course, what the police carry and why shouldn't be considered when choosing proper CCW equipment. What is chosen by government is often not chosen for any good reason.

There are a lot of good reasons to carry a semi-automatic. There are also a lot of good reasons to carry a revolver. Just because modern semi-automatics are newer technology doesn't necessarily make them better choices. New and better are not the same thing.

I don't know how I missed seeing this post for eight days but I finally did.

This is a very, very good post.
 
Back
Top