Here's a variation of the theme, but an M&P revolver: SAC Elite Guard
S&W Model 15 .38 as USAF Commemorative
- Thread starter Gatofeo
- Start date
HayesGreener
US Veteran
I believe the SAC Elite Guard were the first to be issued the M15 in the early 60's but that was before my time.
CactusCapt
Member
I carried the 2" M15 in a shoulder holster (concealed) or survival vest as a C-130 pilot from '83-'90. It carried much better than the M9 we got prior to my separation. We always qualified with the 4" version, though. I still have a soft spot for M15s, and have a 4" nickel and 4" M67. Still searching for the right 2" (mostly the rightly priced 2"!!!).
HayesGreener
US Veteran
Fresno,CA; Udorn,Thailand; Mather,CA;Phan Rang RVN; Korat, Thailand; Andrews, MD; Wright-Patt,OH; MacDill,FL; Hurlburt Field, FL; Homestead, FL; Moody, GA; Carswell, TX; March, CA; Robins, GA; Travis, CA; Scott, IL; Randolph, TX; Wright Patt, OH; Eglin, FL; Ramstein, GE; Mildenhall, UK; Goodfellow, TX.
flash60601
US Veteran
I'd be interested in having one now, because I never got one while in. (1957-61).
In those days, only aircrew got revolvers; AP issue was 1911A1, even on gate-duty, but front-gate guys had to use white holsters (at least at Nellis)
I wound up doing bomb-dump duty frequentlly, and was always issued a mix'n-match 45 with either an M2 Carbine or a shotgun that looked like it was exhumed from a WWI trench, somewhere.
Flash
In those days, only aircrew got revolvers; AP issue was 1911A1, even on gate-duty, but front-gate guys had to use white holsters (at least at Nellis)
I wound up doing bomb-dump duty frequentlly, and was always issued a mix'n-match 45 with either an M2 Carbine or a shotgun that looked like it was exhumed from a WWI trench, somewhere.
Flash
OP
Gatofeo
Member
Law Enforcement Specialist, here.
I was at Lowry Air Force Base, Denver, Colorado from 1975 to late 1976 and Howard Air Force Base, Panama from early 1977 to early 1979.
I extended two months to go to Panama.
A buddy in the admin building told me that if I refused to extend two months to go to Panama, that they had plans to send me to Guam.
I never heard a good thing about Guam, and figured that staying in an extra two months, to get Panama, would be worth it. It was. Nice beaches and a lot of history.
Wish I had the Model 15 issued me in Panama. Someone before me had got hold of it, cracked open the side plate, and polished all the inner surfaces. But they left alone the engaging surfaces where the hammer meets trigger, and the bolt, so they knew what they were doing.
That revolver had the smoothest action! Trigger broke at a crisp 4 pounds, perhaps a little less.
Double-action was effortless and hardly stacked.
Got my expert ribbon with that beauty.
I nearly cried to turn it back in. I still want to cry, because I figure it was cut up and sold for scrap. Damn shame.
It would have been nice for Uncle Sam to offer all its .38 revolvers to veterans, through the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
Loved the Model 15, with 4-inch barrel. Wish I had one for dinking around here in the remote Utah desert.
But I bought a nice Model 10, nickel plated, a couple of years ago and it's a good shooter too. Nice gun for plinking and self-defense.
It's not fancy or sexy, and many youngsters today would snicker at it, but only hits count and I can hit better with it than I can any 9mm or .45 ACP.
I was at Lowry Air Force Base, Denver, Colorado from 1975 to late 1976 and Howard Air Force Base, Panama from early 1977 to early 1979.
I extended two months to go to Panama.
A buddy in the admin building told me that if I refused to extend two months to go to Panama, that they had plans to send me to Guam.
I never heard a good thing about Guam, and figured that staying in an extra two months, to get Panama, would be worth it. It was. Nice beaches and a lot of history.
Wish I had the Model 15 issued me in Panama. Someone before me had got hold of it, cracked open the side plate, and polished all the inner surfaces. But they left alone the engaging surfaces where the hammer meets trigger, and the bolt, so they knew what they were doing.
That revolver had the smoothest action! Trigger broke at a crisp 4 pounds, perhaps a little less.
Double-action was effortless and hardly stacked.
Got my expert ribbon with that beauty.
I nearly cried to turn it back in. I still want to cry, because I figure it was cut up and sold for scrap. Damn shame.
It would have been nice for Uncle Sam to offer all its .38 revolvers to veterans, through the Civilian Marksmanship Program.
Loved the Model 15, with 4-inch barrel. Wish I had one for dinking around here in the remote Utah desert.
But I bought a nice Model 10, nickel plated, a couple of years ago and it's a good shooter too. Nice gun for plinking and self-defense.
It's not fancy or sexy, and many youngsters today would snicker at it, but only hits count and I can hit better with it than I can any 9mm or .45 ACP.
OP
Gatofeo
Member
Well, I started this post and was amazed at the response.
So, last week I sent a letter to Smith & Wesson requesting them to consider an M-15 commemorative for Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard.
No answer yet, of course.
I mentioned that I went by the nom de net Gatofeo, so if you'd like to send Smith & Wesson a postcard or letter to affirm interest, you can refer to me as well. It might jog S&W's memory.
I'm unsure what department ponders such things, so I simply addressed it to the Research & Development Department. I'm sure it will land in the proper hands.
Send a postcard or letter affirming interest in an M15 to honor our branches to:
Smith & Wesson
Research & Development Dept.
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
If I get a reply, and a more precise address, I'll post it here again.
Many thanks to all of you!
So, last week I sent a letter to Smith & Wesson requesting them to consider an M-15 commemorative for Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines and Coast Guard.
No answer yet, of course.
I mentioned that I went by the nom de net Gatofeo, so if you'd like to send Smith & Wesson a postcard or letter to affirm interest, you can refer to me as well. It might jog S&W's memory.
I'm unsure what department ponders such things, so I simply addressed it to the Research & Development Department. I'm sure it will land in the proper hands.
Send a postcard or letter affirming interest in an M15 to honor our branches to:
Smith & Wesson
Research & Development Dept.
2100 Roosevelt Avenue
Springfield, MA 01104
If I get a reply, and a more precise address, I'll post it here again.
Many thanks to all of you!
JWM
Member
130 FMJ at 750 FPS ?
SP/LE troop from 1979-83; then an additional one year in Mass Air National Guard (Otis ANGB, MA) doing the same job, but only one weekend per month.
Lackland for basic, Lackland for Tech school, and yes, Lackland again for permanent party duty assignment. Hey, join the Air Force and see Lackland !! On another note, I remember seeing some literature that our 130 grain FMJ/PGU rounds were rated for 950 fps out of the 4 inch model 15's; not 750 fps as was quoted above. I seem to remember the brown ammo box saying that is was "high velocity" for that stubby little round. What gives ??
SP/LE troop from 1979-83; then an additional one year in Mass Air National Guard (Otis ANGB, MA) doing the same job, but only one weekend per month.
Lackland for basic, Lackland for Tech school, and yes, Lackland again for permanent party duty assignment. Hey, join the Air Force and see Lackland !! On another note, I remember seeing some literature that our 130 grain FMJ/PGU rounds were rated for 950 fps out of the 4 inch model 15's; not 750 fps as was quoted above. I seem to remember the brown ammo box saying that is was "high velocity" for that stubby little round. What gives ??
MSgt G
US Veteran
I'd love to have one as well!
OP
Gatofeo
Member
JWM:
I've chronographed Remington and Winchester M41 from 1961 and Winchester M41 cartridges from 1974. Both did about 750 fps from my 4" Smith & Wesson Model 10.
But I don't dispute your memory.
The Air Force played around with higher velocity loads, after they recognized the weakness of a 130 gr. full metal jacket bullet at 750 fps.
The March 1982 American Rifleman (p. 68) has some good info on these efforts.
All of the following use the same 130 gr. FMJ bullet, but the depth of the seated bullet differed, as well as the amount of powder used:
PGU-12/B has a deep-seated bullet and heavy crimp. The headstamp includes the telltale +P marking. This cartridge gets 1,125 fps (plus or minus 25 fps) from a 6" solid test barrel. Maximum allowable pressure is 20,000 psi, which certainly qualifies it as +P.
The American Rifleman staff chronographed these same rounds from a 4" barrel at 950 to 980 fps.
The standard M41 ball is loaded to standard .38 Special pressures of 16,000 psi maximum and develops 950 fps (plus or minus 25 fps) from a 6" solid test barrel.
The American Rifleman chronographed the M41 cartridge at 720 to 770 fps. This velocity is about the minimum at which a jacketed bullet can be expelled from a revolver.
Because there were instances of jacketed bullets getting stuck in the 4" barrel of service revolvers, a shorter-cased cartridge was introduced.
Introduced by the Army, the experimental M41E2 had a shorter case than the standard .38 Special (1.056 inch compared to 1.150 inch).
The bullet was deeply seated with the case meeting the bullet's ogive. This deep seating was done to reduce airspace in the case, and improve ignition.
The American Rifleman notes that this cartridge is not commonly encountered. Velocity was the same as the M41: 720 to 770 fps.
The Army did not adopt a high velocity .38 Special cartridge because it shortened the service life of revolvers. Niceeeeeeee ... guess an $80 revolver (what one cost new in 1978) was worth more than a soldier.
Most of the bullet-stuck-in-bore incidents with M41 ammo were reported to have occurred with older revolvers that were well worn. Few such incidents were noted in revolvers in good condition.
On a personal note, when elk and deer hunting in Idaho I carried a 6" Ruger .357 Magnum in a shoulder holster. The first three rounds were M41 FMJ .38 Special cartridges. I managed to knock off a few grouse with these bullets, with very minimal meat damage. They just zipped right through the bird, like a sharpened pencil through wet cardboard.
Killed the birds readily, though.
These same M41 rounds are sold everywhere today, as the 130 gr. FMJ .38 Special cartridge that so many shooters use for plinking. It's a good round for small game at close range, but I certainly wouldn't trust my life with it.
Back in the mid 70s, Speer catalogued a 150 gr. FMJ +P, in nickel cases. When I was in Panama, after guardmount I'd empty my S&W revolver and replace it with these. I was young, foolish and figured the Air Force wouldn't raise a fuss since it was still an FMJ bullet.
I know now that I would have been in Deep Merde if I'd ever shot someone with those non-official rounds.
No one knew for many months, but I finally went back to the issue rounds because I was short, getting out in a few months, and didn't want any proceedings to delay or affect my discharge.
Speer now makes a .38 Special +P 158 gr. Total Metal Jacket cartridge. I don't know what the velocity is.
I've tried the Fiocchi 158 gr. FMJ and that stuff is probably near +P. It's obviously hotter than standard American ammo but I haven't chronographed it. The Europeans tend to load their ammo a little more powerful than American stuff (though, if I recall correctly, American-sold Fiocchi ammo is now made in Missouri).
Anyway, much more than you likely wanted to know. But now you know!
Forgive my verbosity.
I've chronographed Remington and Winchester M41 from 1961 and Winchester M41 cartridges from 1974. Both did about 750 fps from my 4" Smith & Wesson Model 10.
But I don't dispute your memory.
The Air Force played around with higher velocity loads, after they recognized the weakness of a 130 gr. full metal jacket bullet at 750 fps.
The March 1982 American Rifleman (p. 68) has some good info on these efforts.
All of the following use the same 130 gr. FMJ bullet, but the depth of the seated bullet differed, as well as the amount of powder used:
PGU-12/B has a deep-seated bullet and heavy crimp. The headstamp includes the telltale +P marking. This cartridge gets 1,125 fps (plus or minus 25 fps) from a 6" solid test barrel. Maximum allowable pressure is 20,000 psi, which certainly qualifies it as +P.
The American Rifleman staff chronographed these same rounds from a 4" barrel at 950 to 980 fps.
The standard M41 ball is loaded to standard .38 Special pressures of 16,000 psi maximum and develops 950 fps (plus or minus 25 fps) from a 6" solid test barrel.
The American Rifleman chronographed the M41 cartridge at 720 to 770 fps. This velocity is about the minimum at which a jacketed bullet can be expelled from a revolver.
Because there were instances of jacketed bullets getting stuck in the 4" barrel of service revolvers, a shorter-cased cartridge was introduced.
Introduced by the Army, the experimental M41E2 had a shorter case than the standard .38 Special (1.056 inch compared to 1.150 inch).
The bullet was deeply seated with the case meeting the bullet's ogive. This deep seating was done to reduce airspace in the case, and improve ignition.
The American Rifleman notes that this cartridge is not commonly encountered. Velocity was the same as the M41: 720 to 770 fps.
The Army did not adopt a high velocity .38 Special cartridge because it shortened the service life of revolvers. Niceeeeeeee ... guess an $80 revolver (what one cost new in 1978) was worth more than a soldier.
Most of the bullet-stuck-in-bore incidents with M41 ammo were reported to have occurred with older revolvers that were well worn. Few such incidents were noted in revolvers in good condition.
On a personal note, when elk and deer hunting in Idaho I carried a 6" Ruger .357 Magnum in a shoulder holster. The first three rounds were M41 FMJ .38 Special cartridges. I managed to knock off a few grouse with these bullets, with very minimal meat damage. They just zipped right through the bird, like a sharpened pencil through wet cardboard.
Killed the birds readily, though.
These same M41 rounds are sold everywhere today, as the 130 gr. FMJ .38 Special cartridge that so many shooters use for plinking. It's a good round for small game at close range, but I certainly wouldn't trust my life with it.
Back in the mid 70s, Speer catalogued a 150 gr. FMJ +P, in nickel cases. When I was in Panama, after guardmount I'd empty my S&W revolver and replace it with these. I was young, foolish and figured the Air Force wouldn't raise a fuss since it was still an FMJ bullet.
I know now that I would have been in Deep Merde if I'd ever shot someone with those non-official rounds.
No one knew for many months, but I finally went back to the issue rounds because I was short, getting out in a few months, and didn't want any proceedings to delay or affect my discharge.
Speer now makes a .38 Special +P 158 gr. Total Metal Jacket cartridge. I don't know what the velocity is.
I've tried the Fiocchi 158 gr. FMJ and that stuff is probably near +P. It's obviously hotter than standard American ammo but I haven't chronographed it. The Europeans tend to load their ammo a little more powerful than American stuff (though, if I recall correctly, American-sold Fiocchi ammo is now made in Missouri).
Anyway, much more than you likely wanted to know. But now you know!
Forgive my verbosity.
JWM
Member
Gateofeo:
Thinks for the feedback on the PGU round. I was a NRA member back then in 1982, so I do remember the American Rifleman magazine article. Maybe somebody can scan and post a link to the article as it was pretty in-depth on the military .38 round at that time. Additional, after leaving active duty Air Force, I was picked up as a GS-4 DOD Police Officer at Otis ANGB, MA. Again, I was issued an Air Force Model 15 for a duty weapon with the PGU rounds for ammo. I had some time to kill one afternoon on routine patrol, so being a "gun person" I headed to the north end of the installation for some plinking at abandon automobiles that the Army National Guard had towed in for artillery practice. I got to them first with my .38 revolver and some extra PGU rounds. In my informal testing, all the rounds easily punched through the front windshield from about 20 feet. I put some rounds through the side doors, but I don't think they penetrated into the interior of the cars. Made for a fun afternoon though.
Thinks for the feedback on the PGU round. I was a NRA member back then in 1982, so I do remember the American Rifleman magazine article. Maybe somebody can scan and post a link to the article as it was pretty in-depth on the military .38 round at that time. Additional, after leaving active duty Air Force, I was picked up as a GS-4 DOD Police Officer at Otis ANGB, MA. Again, I was issued an Air Force Model 15 for a duty weapon with the PGU rounds for ammo. I had some time to kill one afternoon on routine patrol, so being a "gun person" I headed to the north end of the installation for some plinking at abandon automobiles that the Army National Guard had towed in for artillery practice. I got to them first with my .38 revolver and some extra PGU rounds. In my informal testing, all the rounds easily punched through the front windshield from about 20 feet. I put some rounds through the side doors, but I don't think they penetrated into the interior of the cars. Made for a fun afternoon though.
amd6547
Member
So, the Winchester white box 130gn FMJ only runs 750fps? Anybody chronograph it? I found it to be very accurate in my Model 15 recently at 25yds.
Sgt Neutron
Member
Capt., Are you sure it was a 2" Model 15, and not the 2" Model 56? I carried the Model 56 in Titan II ICBM silos in the early 1980's (before they were deactivated). We also qualified with the 4" 15's, but carried the 2" M-56's. I Am not aware of the USAF issuing a 2" M-15. I resigned the fact of getting a M-56 anytime soon, as the cheapest I've seen them is in the $2500-$3000 range with $4500-$5000 being the more common range.
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OP
Gatofeo
Member
I worked in the armory for about 3 months at Lowry Air Force Base in Denver. In the armory we had about 20 M-15s with 2" barrels, for issue to OSI agents. Heck, we only had about six OSI agents on the whole post!
The OSI agents carried Remington 158 gr. roundnosed lead ammo, in the blue and white boxes. There were about four CASES of this ammo in a locker. I think there were 1,000 rounds per case.
Yet, OSO agents qualified with the same 148 gr. Winchester wadcutters we Security Police qualified with.
I know those 2"-barreled .38s were Model 15s because they were listed as such on our inventory, we had to do monthly. In those days, I wasn't up on Smith & Wessons and didn't know to check the model number stamped in the frame under the crane.
They looked identical to our M15s, except for the shorter barrel. They were squarebutt with walnut grips.
About the only time an OSI agent checked one out was for qualification. Perhaps twice a year, at most, they checked one out for real carry. One time, an OSI agent checked one out while he accompanied Denver PD to arrest an airman in downtown Denver, who was suspected of armed robbery.
The airman was arrested without incident. The 2" M15 was checked back into the armory, unfired. I know, because I looked down the chambers and bore to see if it needed cleaning.
I hope my letter to Smith & Wesson is convincing. I'd surely love to relive the days of my youth with a blued, Model 15!
The OSI agents carried Remington 158 gr. roundnosed lead ammo, in the blue and white boxes. There were about four CASES of this ammo in a locker. I think there were 1,000 rounds per case.
Yet, OSO agents qualified with the same 148 gr. Winchester wadcutters we Security Police qualified with.
I know those 2"-barreled .38s were Model 15s because they were listed as such on our inventory, we had to do monthly. In those days, I wasn't up on Smith & Wessons and didn't know to check the model number stamped in the frame under the crane.
They looked identical to our M15s, except for the shorter barrel. They were squarebutt with walnut grips.
About the only time an OSI agent checked one out was for qualification. Perhaps twice a year, at most, they checked one out for real carry. One time, an OSI agent checked one out while he accompanied Denver PD to arrest an airman in downtown Denver, who was suspected of armed robbery.
The airman was arrested without incident. The 2" M15 was checked back into the armory, unfired. I know, because I looked down the chambers and bore to see if it needed cleaning.
I hope my letter to Smith & Wesson is convincing. I'd surely love to relive the days of my youth with a blued, Model 15!
JWM
Member
Gatofeo:
Did USAF OSI agents have a "standard" issue weapon back then ? I seem to remember accounts of special chopped down .45 1911's specially made for them by the gunsmiths at Lackland. On another occassion, I recall reviewing the course of fire for an OSI group about to qualify and it mentioned using their S&W model 36's five shooters. Not doubting your experience with the 2" bbl model 15's, but I'm wondering if OSI had a bunch of handguns to choose from.
Did USAF OSI agents have a "standard" issue weapon back then ? I seem to remember accounts of special chopped down .45 1911's specially made for them by the gunsmiths at Lackland. On another occassion, I recall reviewing the course of fire for an OSI group about to qualify and it mentioned using their S&W model 36's five shooters. Not doubting your experience with the 2" bbl model 15's, but I'm wondering if OSI had a bunch of handguns to choose from.
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JWM
Member
OSI .45 autos
Okay, I guess I should have done a google search on this topic before posting. Anyway, here is a cut & paste from the sight1911.com web page on USAF OSI:
The last military modification of the M1911A1 came in the early 1980s. The United States Air Force wanted to issue its Office of Special Investigations (OSI) personnel something a little potent, but nearly as compact as a .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver. Starting with the basic M1911A1 acquired from the U.S. Navy as surplus, unserviceable weapons, the slide and barrel were shortened by .75"(1.905 cm). The frame was also shortened nearly .5"(1.27 cm), requiring a special six round magazine to be created, with a finger rest to create a better gripping surface for personnel with large hands. The front edge of the triggerguard was squared and the frontstrap stippled for better gripping. A ramp-type front sight was installed on the shortened slide and an ambidextrous safety was built and added to the pistols. Costing U.S. taxpayers less than $100 to rebuild, only a small number of these OSI pistols were built.
Okay, I guess I should have done a google search on this topic before posting. Anyway, here is a cut & paste from the sight1911.com web page on USAF OSI:
The last military modification of the M1911A1 came in the early 1980s. The United States Air Force wanted to issue its Office of Special Investigations (OSI) personnel something a little potent, but nearly as compact as a .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver. Starting with the basic M1911A1 acquired from the U.S. Navy as surplus, unserviceable weapons, the slide and barrel were shortened by .75"(1.905 cm). The frame was also shortened nearly .5"(1.27 cm), requiring a special six round magazine to be created, with a finger rest to create a better gripping surface for personnel with large hands. The front edge of the triggerguard was squared and the frontstrap stippled for better gripping. A ramp-type front sight was installed on the shortened slide and an ambidextrous safety was built and added to the pistols. Costing U.S. taxpayers less than $100 to rebuild, only a small number of these OSI pistols were built.
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OP
Gatofeo
Member
I was honorably discharged in January, 1979 so the chopped-down .45 was after my time.
But I will note this: The big, noticed air bases -- especially along the eastern seaboard and a few, select SAC bases -- got new, novel stuff we only read about in Air Force Times.
Lowry Air Force Base in Denver was an Air Training Command base -- a backwater for SPs. Howard Air Force Base in Panama was a Military Airlift Command base -- another SP backwater.
In Panama, we were told that all the SPs would soon be issued dark blue flight suits, with built in keepers around the waist for our leather gunbelt. We were looking forward to it, because the flight suits didn't need to be starched -- just toss them in the washer and dryer and then hang up.
Well, months and months went by and no word. Finally, one of our sergeants disgustedly plopped an Air Force Times down in front of us with an article about the nifty new dark blue flight suits that all general officers would be issued.
And there was some general with a gun belt, and a chopped-down .45 on his hip, looking jaunty.
About that time, general officers began to be issued custom-made, chopped-down .45s which they were allowed to keep when they left the Air Force. Or, at least they could buy them. Can't recall which.
Taxpayer paid a lot for those guns that had almost no chance of ever being fired in anger. They were strictly for show.
And there we were, some of us with older, worn .38s that spit slivers of lead when we qualified with wadcutters.
I was an SP from 1975 to January 1979, just afer the Vietnam pullout. After that period, funding was cut and the military was hated. We ate C rations that were made in the early 1960s. I recall carrying 7.62 ammo for my M60 that was made in 1965.
Our patrol cars were 1969 American Motors Ambassadors with nearly 300,000 miles on them, 6 cylinder and 3-speed on the column. One of our guys got outrun by a Volkswagen. Our belt radios were huge Motorolas that weighed probably close to 3 pounds.
Much of our equipment was old, worn and obsolete -- and yet, it was still being issued.
The point being, even though the officially stance was that "standard issue" meant issue to everyone, not everyone received the same items. Many of us had to make-do with what we had.
Even today, the military wastes tremendous piles of money.
The Beretta M9 9mm pistol was pushed through 25 years ago. At the time, it was claimed that standardization of a sidearm would cure many logistic problems: every branch would carry the M9, so supply and repair would be greatly simplifed.
Sounded good.
Then out of the blue, a few years after the M9 adoption, the Navy purchased tens of thousands of Sigs, I think it was. The Marines adopted a .45 for special troops a few years ago. The Air Force is pondering the .45 once again. Will the .38 Special be next? Or the .40 S&W?
I'm sure quartermasters are driven half-mad trying to supply parts, magazines, cleaning kits, ammo and whatnot.
But I will note this: The big, noticed air bases -- especially along the eastern seaboard and a few, select SAC bases -- got new, novel stuff we only read about in Air Force Times.
Lowry Air Force Base in Denver was an Air Training Command base -- a backwater for SPs. Howard Air Force Base in Panama was a Military Airlift Command base -- another SP backwater.
In Panama, we were told that all the SPs would soon be issued dark blue flight suits, with built in keepers around the waist for our leather gunbelt. We were looking forward to it, because the flight suits didn't need to be starched -- just toss them in the washer and dryer and then hang up.
Well, months and months went by and no word. Finally, one of our sergeants disgustedly plopped an Air Force Times down in front of us with an article about the nifty new dark blue flight suits that all general officers would be issued.
And there was some general with a gun belt, and a chopped-down .45 on his hip, looking jaunty.
About that time, general officers began to be issued custom-made, chopped-down .45s which they were allowed to keep when they left the Air Force. Or, at least they could buy them. Can't recall which.
Taxpayer paid a lot for those guns that had almost no chance of ever being fired in anger. They were strictly for show.
And there we were, some of us with older, worn .38s that spit slivers of lead when we qualified with wadcutters.
I was an SP from 1975 to January 1979, just afer the Vietnam pullout. After that period, funding was cut and the military was hated. We ate C rations that were made in the early 1960s. I recall carrying 7.62 ammo for my M60 that was made in 1965.
Our patrol cars were 1969 American Motors Ambassadors with nearly 300,000 miles on them, 6 cylinder and 3-speed on the column. One of our guys got outrun by a Volkswagen. Our belt radios were huge Motorolas that weighed probably close to 3 pounds.
Much of our equipment was old, worn and obsolete -- and yet, it was still being issued.
The point being, even though the officially stance was that "standard issue" meant issue to everyone, not everyone received the same items. Many of us had to make-do with what we had.
Even today, the military wastes tremendous piles of money.
The Beretta M9 9mm pistol was pushed through 25 years ago. At the time, it was claimed that standardization of a sidearm would cure many logistic problems: every branch would carry the M9, so supply and repair would be greatly simplifed.
Sounded good.
Then out of the blue, a few years after the M9 adoption, the Navy purchased tens of thousands of Sigs, I think it was. The Marines adopted a .45 for special troops a few years ago. The Air Force is pondering the .45 once again. Will the .38 Special be next? Or the .40 S&W?
I'm sure quartermasters are driven half-mad trying to supply parts, magazines, cleaning kits, ammo and whatnot.
What a great thread hearing about the Air Force S&W 15! The first S&W I purchased was a mint model 15 with target trigger and hammer. It was hidden behind several assorted 9mm's with a price of $300 and hardly a turn line on the cylinder. I asked if they could do better and I bought it that day for $275!
It is ironic that an Army grunt would wind up with a similar sidearm of the AP's. My 15 was made in 1966 and after reading the stories of all who carried one, I am proud to own mine.
Bimmer
It is ironic that an Army grunt would wind up with a similar sidearm of the AP's. My 15 was made in 1966 and after reading the stories of all who carried one, I am proud to own mine.
Bimmer
OP
Gatofeo
Member
When I was an SP, all dog handlers regardless of branch carried double-action .38 revolvers.
The reason was simple.
The military demanded that the 1911 .45 be carried with an empty chamber and loaded magazine. To activate it, before returning fire, you had to pull the slide back and let it go.
Easily done with two hands; impossible with one hand.
Dog handlers had only one shooting hand, because their other hand was occupied by the dog's leash.
They couldn't drop the dog's leash to cycle the .45s slide because a dropped leash told the dog, "Go get him!"
The handler required control of his patrol or drug dog at all times.
But the .38 revolver was easy to use with one hand: pull it out of the holster and pull the double-action trigger, which cammed back the hammer until the revolver fired.
Yes, the .38 with its 6 individual cartridges was slower to reload than the .45 and its magazine, but statistically nearly all pistol fights end within 3 or 4 shots expended by both sides. Within two shots by either side, someone's going down.
Long, drawn-out pistol fights are the stuff of movies and detective novels.
Anyway, I saw Army dog handlers at Fort Kobbe, Panama with .38s on their hips. I also saw Marine dog handlers in Panama with .38s. At this time, about 1978, the Navy Security Police also carried the .38 revolver. I knew a few Navy cops, who stopped by the main gate at Howard Air Force Base, Panama, and they all carried .38 revolvers.
They much preferred the .38 as it was utterly reliable and accurate. The .45s that Army MPs carried, who stopped by the main gate to chat, were in horrible shape. Their .45s were made in World War II and worn out; one MP told me he had to remove the rear sight on his 1911 before qualifying each time, because with the first shot the rear sight would fly off the slide.
They uniformly complained about the inaccuracy and unreliability of the old, worn-out .45s. Our Smith & Wesson Combat Masterpiece was viewed with envy by them.
Truth be told, a 1911 in good condition with good ammo is a fine combat arm. But old and worn it becomes a plague.
I never saw a dog handler with a .45, they all were issued .38 revolvers for the cited reason. And those I spoke with loved their .38 revolver because it was accurate, had little recoil and went bang every time you pulled the trigger, without fail.
The reason was simple.
The military demanded that the 1911 .45 be carried with an empty chamber and loaded magazine. To activate it, before returning fire, you had to pull the slide back and let it go.
Easily done with two hands; impossible with one hand.
Dog handlers had only one shooting hand, because their other hand was occupied by the dog's leash.
They couldn't drop the dog's leash to cycle the .45s slide because a dropped leash told the dog, "Go get him!"
The handler required control of his patrol or drug dog at all times.
But the .38 revolver was easy to use with one hand: pull it out of the holster and pull the double-action trigger, which cammed back the hammer until the revolver fired.
Yes, the .38 with its 6 individual cartridges was slower to reload than the .45 and its magazine, but statistically nearly all pistol fights end within 3 or 4 shots expended by both sides. Within two shots by either side, someone's going down.
Long, drawn-out pistol fights are the stuff of movies and detective novels.
Anyway, I saw Army dog handlers at Fort Kobbe, Panama with .38s on their hips. I also saw Marine dog handlers in Panama with .38s. At this time, about 1978, the Navy Security Police also carried the .38 revolver. I knew a few Navy cops, who stopped by the main gate at Howard Air Force Base, Panama, and they all carried .38 revolvers.
They much preferred the .38 as it was utterly reliable and accurate. The .45s that Army MPs carried, who stopped by the main gate to chat, were in horrible shape. Their .45s were made in World War II and worn out; one MP told me he had to remove the rear sight on his 1911 before qualifying each time, because with the first shot the rear sight would fly off the slide.
They uniformly complained about the inaccuracy and unreliability of the old, worn-out .45s. Our Smith & Wesson Combat Masterpiece was viewed with envy by them.
Truth be told, a 1911 in good condition with good ammo is a fine combat arm. But old and worn it becomes a plague.
I never saw a dog handler with a .45, they all were issued .38 revolvers for the cited reason. And those I spoke with loved their .38 revolver because it was accurate, had little recoil and went bang every time you pulled the trigger, without fail.
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