S&W model 25-15 max loads
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T/C Contenders, this may not have much to do with S&W 25
discussion, but I have seen a few of the original Contenders with
sprung/ stretched frames from constant use of heavy 44 mag
loads. They were from same click of guys who were shooting
300gr bullets over max. This was a high round count from guys
shooting met. silos.
discussion, but I have seen a few of the original Contenders with
sprung/ stretched frames from constant use of heavy 44 mag
loads. They were from same click of guys who were shooting
300gr bullets over max. This was a high round count from guys
shooting met. silos.
I will agree that a gun fired with maximum loads will not last as long and have problems before one fired with light loads. Even a model 28 will stay tighter longer firing light 38 specials compared to hot 357s and it and its cylinder are a beast compared to its round.
A 45 Colt firing 21,000 psi loads will loosen before one firing 14,000 psi loads. I just fail to understand why anyone thinks a 45 colt cylinder is some how weaker than a 45 acp cylinder and is headed for failure running the same pressures. Yes the bullets are heavier, but 21,000 psi is the same recoil to the frame is heavier, but the same frame is taking way more abuse with the 44 mag.
I am going to call a engineer (mechanical who focuses on pressure systems) buddy tomorrow and talk about it. And at some point I will make a heavy test frame to hold a older 45 cylinder (older short one I replaced with a long one) I have in my pile and load it hotter and hotter till it blows. Yes, I also understand about metal fatigue and how it occurs, You must stress the steel beyond its elastic limit repeatedly. A 45 acp cylinder would get stretched the same as a 45 colt cylinder at the same pressures. I realize blowing up a cylinder will not test for this, but having an idea about the pressure needed to cause catastrophic failure will give some insight as to where the elastic limits are. Measuring after each increase in powder level without failure may show at what point the cylinder is expanding beyond its elastic limit. Should be fun.
A 45 Colt firing 21,000 psi loads will loosen before one firing 14,000 psi loads. I just fail to understand why anyone thinks a 45 colt cylinder is some how weaker than a 45 acp cylinder and is headed for failure running the same pressures. Yes the bullets are heavier, but 21,000 psi is the same recoil to the frame is heavier, but the same frame is taking way more abuse with the 44 mag.
I am going to call a engineer (mechanical who focuses on pressure systems) buddy tomorrow and talk about it. And at some point I will make a heavy test frame to hold a older 45 cylinder (older short one I replaced with a long one) I have in my pile and load it hotter and hotter till it blows. Yes, I also understand about metal fatigue and how it occurs, You must stress the steel beyond its elastic limit repeatedly. A 45 acp cylinder would get stretched the same as a 45 colt cylinder at the same pressures. I realize blowing up a cylinder will not test for this, but having an idea about the pressure needed to cause catastrophic failure will give some insight as to where the elastic limits are. Measuring after each increase in powder level without failure may show at what point the cylinder is expanding beyond its elastic limit. Should be fun.
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USSR
Member
A lot of ignorance concerning the Model 25 here. steelslayer is correct: The very same Model 25 in .45 ACP is rated for handling the .45 ACP +P cartridge at 23k psi, so there is no reason on God's green earth that the Model 25 in .45 Colt is not as well. Also, the so-called "weakness" of modern .45 Colt cases has been debunked decades ago.
Don
Don
Starline are the only cases I use with many of my pistol cartridges, including 45 Colt, & they are strong.
Starline says this of their 45 Colt cases: "Our .45 Colt brass has been tested to .44 Magnum pressures in gun systems suitable for such loads."
When I had my Ruger SRH .454 Casull I shot more S-L case 45 Colt loads in it than 454C cases. I loaded them, on occasion, to just under starting 454C loads without issues. (Obviously these loads ARE NOT for 45 Colt revolvers.) Hornady cases are just as strong.
Definitely case strength needn't be an issue in the 45 Colt.
. . .
I too see no reason why 45 ACP +P (23K PSI) loads are okay in a M25/625 but not in the same gun in 45 Colt caliber. Like others I also shoot 45 Super loads in my M325/625s that are ~25K PSI.
All my favorite 45 Colt loads are (+P) loads.
And while I wouldn't go this far, Clark Customs say they offer M25/625 .45ACP conversion to 460 Roland.
Convert S&W 25/625 (.45ACP) to shoot .460 Rowland
.
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Now, as I look through S&W's webpage, and what was sent with my modern gun steel 22-4 revolver, they say 45 ACP, and nothing about being rated for +p or Super. I either missed it somewhere, or all of this "rating" comes from reloaders and boutique ammunition makers. I'm not arguing that my revolver can't shoot loads hotter than 45 Auto Rim or 45 ACP, or maybe 45 +p, but I sure don't see any formal literature or guidelines that officially state the 45 ACP revolvers are rated higher than standard.
K frame 357 Magnums are officially rated to take magnum loads, but a lifetime of those rounds will break the frame. Now, putting a through heavy loads in your 25 won't break the gun right off if you keep it to 23k or so, but the question goes to wither or not it will break the cylinder after a lifetime of such shooting. Occasional fire, hunting, carrying a few for self defense for creatures, that might be alright, but if you took your Model 25 as your silohoutte gun and put a few thousand, than I'm not going to stand behind you.
I'm going to theorize that the reason we don't see problems with 45 ACP revolvers blowing up with 45 Super is because people shoot a few, than quit. Its a novelty, an occasional practice for defense round, something you might carry or shoot on occasion. How many people put 1,000 rounds of Super through one? 2k? 3K? 10,000? 45 ACP revolver shooters will hunt a few animals, but will probably go back to lighter target loads, so we don't see the problems that could occur.
My fear is that 45 Colt shooters might start to think 45 Super's pressure level is normal, might try to squeeze a little bit more out as they get bolder, treat their gun like a 44 Magnum, and put hundreds than maybe a few thousand of these hot loads into one, and one day, not the first day, but some day, that cylinder stop has had enough and quits. I'd wager, on my own speculation with grains of salt, that 45 ACP shooters are less likely to beat the hell out of their guns with high volume high pressure, and 45 Colt people are the opposite of that.
You never have enough truck, and if your beloved half ton is having problems pulling your trailer, maybe its time to start thinking about getting a 3/4 ton. If you only pull the trailer every once and a while, maybe you can get by with it. But if you are going to pull it every day, you are heading for trouble.
K frame 357 Magnums are officially rated to take magnum loads, but a lifetime of those rounds will break the frame. Now, putting a through heavy loads in your 25 won't break the gun right off if you keep it to 23k or so, but the question goes to wither or not it will break the cylinder after a lifetime of such shooting. Occasional fire, hunting, carrying a few for self defense for creatures, that might be alright, but if you took your Model 25 as your silohoutte gun and put a few thousand, than I'm not going to stand behind you.
I'm going to theorize that the reason we don't see problems with 45 ACP revolvers blowing up with 45 Super is because people shoot a few, than quit. Its a novelty, an occasional practice for defense round, something you might carry or shoot on occasion. How many people put 1,000 rounds of Super through one? 2k? 3K? 10,000? 45 ACP revolver shooters will hunt a few animals, but will probably go back to lighter target loads, so we don't see the problems that could occur.
My fear is that 45 Colt shooters might start to think 45 Super's pressure level is normal, might try to squeeze a little bit more out as they get bolder, treat their gun like a 44 Magnum, and put hundreds than maybe a few thousand of these hot loads into one, and one day, not the first day, but some day, that cylinder stop has had enough and quits. I'd wager, on my own speculation with grains of salt, that 45 ACP shooters are less likely to beat the hell out of their guns with high volume high pressure, and 45 Colt people are the opposite of that.
You never have enough truck, and if your beloved half ton is having problems pulling your trailer, maybe its time to start thinking about getting a 3/4 ton. If you only pull the trailer every once and a while, maybe you can get by with it. But if you are going to pull it every day, you are heading for trouble.
and I wanted a 45 colt so that's what I bought 
I will probably shoot 18 rounds at the range to see how it shoots , and after that carry it a lot on hunting trips but shoot it very little would be lucky to say it will be shot 100 rounds in my life time the rest will be 255 SWC Keith loads
I will probably shoot 18 rounds at the range to see how it shoots , and after that carry it a lot on hunting trips but shoot it very little would be lucky to say it will be shot 100 rounds in my life time the rest will be 255 SWC Keith loadsThen why are you trying to load it like a Magnum or a Casull?
Hodgon lists 250-grain data all the way up to the 900-1000 fps range. That's a PF of ~243, and quite capable. I checked--there's no proven link between 300-grain bullets and "male enhancement". The effect is purely psychosomatic.
Hodgon lists 250-grain data all the way up to the 900-1000 fps range. That's a PF of ~243, and quite capable. I checked--there's no proven link between 300-grain bullets and "male enhancement". The effect is purely psychosomatic.
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I just got off the phone with the engineer I know. I explained to him about the differences between a 45 ACP cylinder and a 45 colt cylinder, the cylinder notch, etc and this whole controversy. He said he did not see any reason that a 45 colt cylinder would not handle the same pressures as the 45 acp cylinder. He did say that it is possible that the bigger case might actually fair better because although we tend to think of such explosions as generating pressure equally in all directions they are not actually instantly evenly distributed and the larger the volume of the containment vessel the better it is about equalizing.
Once again I am not really advocate of maximum pressures. The was a time in my late 20s and early 30s (30+ years ago) when everything was to the max and beyond. There was a time when I fired 24 gr of 2400 behind a 240 gr bullet in 44 mag. 22 gr behind a 255 in 45 colt, pushed my 220 Swift hard etc.etc. Never blew a gun up, ( did eat the throat out of the 220 Swift) but I don't see the need for that stuff anymore. I don't max load anything any more.
But, I simply do not believe that a 45 colt running 21,000 is abusing it any more than firing 21,000 in my acp loads. 3 of my 45s are cut for full moons and fire both rounds. The S&W 45 colts are fine modern guns that have been held in check by the factory loadings that are held in check by the limits of some of the older guns and cases for the round, S&W policy about using only factory loads in ALL of its guns. I only fire mild loads in my 455 triple lock that was reamed to 45 colt. Older gun, poorer steel and heat treat and it is just to cool to mess around with. I only load round nose bullets for it just to make sure one of my hotter rounds never ends up in it.
I do have a couple old S&W 45 barrels and some N frame cylinders. I have been thinking for a while about milling a cutout in a large block of steel to hold a cylinder and barrel along with a remote firing mechanism, mounting the whole thing on a heavy plate and starting at 21 gr of 2400 and 260 gr bullets and going up .5 gr at a time, measure the cylinder after each firing and go till I blow the cylinder. It will have to be a shorter cylinder as I don't want to sacrifice a longer 44 mag length cylinder. I could built a steel hood to cover the top and rear of the test gun to contain the piece. Should be fun when I get some my other projects on my long list done.
Once again I am not really advocate of maximum pressures. The was a time in my late 20s and early 30s (30+ years ago) when everything was to the max and beyond. There was a time when I fired 24 gr of 2400 behind a 240 gr bullet in 44 mag. 22 gr behind a 255 in 45 colt, pushed my 220 Swift hard etc.etc. Never blew a gun up, ( did eat the throat out of the 220 Swift) but I don't see the need for that stuff anymore. I don't max load anything any more.
But, I simply do not believe that a 45 colt running 21,000 is abusing it any more than firing 21,000 in my acp loads. 3 of my 45s are cut for full moons and fire both rounds. The S&W 45 colts are fine modern guns that have been held in check by the factory loadings that are held in check by the limits of some of the older guns and cases for the round, S&W policy about using only factory loads in ALL of its guns. I only fire mild loads in my 455 triple lock that was reamed to 45 colt. Older gun, poorer steel and heat treat and it is just to cool to mess around with. I only load round nose bullets for it just to make sure one of my hotter rounds never ends up in it.
I do have a couple old S&W 45 barrels and some N frame cylinders. I have been thinking for a while about milling a cutout in a large block of steel to hold a cylinder and barrel along with a remote firing mechanism, mounting the whole thing on a heavy plate and starting at 21 gr of 2400 and 260 gr bullets and going up .5 gr at a time, measure the cylinder after each firing and go till I blow the cylinder. It will have to be a shorter cylinder as I don't want to sacrifice a longer 44 mag length cylinder. I could built a steel hood to cover the top and rear of the test gun to contain the piece. Should be fun when I get some my other projects on my long list done.
Groo01
Member
Groo here
Why a 300 gr bullet?
I got in the heavy bullet train years ago.
After how poor it performed on Ohio game I went to normal weight
HP's.[ the load was 44mag/320gr cast/1300fp went through like a drill press and deer ran off- the load was for elephant! not enough deer to work on!!]
The 45 colt 255gr RN lead bullet at 950fps was known to blow
through a horse , side to side, and the man on the other side.
This is easy to get in a 45 colt or 45 acp revolver.
what more do you need?????
Why a 300 gr bullet?
I got in the heavy bullet train years ago.
After how poor it performed on Ohio game I went to normal weight
HP's.[ the load was 44mag/320gr cast/1300fp went through like a drill press and deer ran off- the load was for elephant! not enough deer to work on!!]
The 45 colt 255gr RN lead bullet at 950fps was known to blow
through a horse , side to side, and the man on the other side.
This is easy to get in a 45 colt or 45 acp revolver.
what more do you need?????
m657
Member
Appreciate the discussion here above. The issue for me is not relevant, as in my own 'pressure vessel' there are plenty of creaks and groans and effects of long-established abuse/overuse/overload.
Heavy loads no longer are pleasurable, viable, accurate or necessary in my doddering ever increasing geezeritis.
A few days ago I shot some heavy factory defense loads from a buddies new titanium 4" 629.
While his upgraded grips were quite comfy, and the general recoil "not all that bad".....I was forced to admit at 40' and 24 rounds, hitting that little 6" falling plate 3 times wasn't 'within spec' regardless of whatever feats of engineering made the loud bangs possible.
Not to distract from the metallurgy etc, the last few weeks have exposed me to a couple of the 'large big bore' ideas....in bowling pin competition (around 50') one guy likes to shoot his 454 Casul...no big deal, he generally never hits a single pin, perhaps due to his neurological tremor. Another was cheered onward with his 4" 500 S&W Magnum....after 18 shots no pins were touched.
For my efforts, the joy of shooting works better in my hand in stepping down from the extremes.
Heavy loads no longer are pleasurable, viable, accurate or necessary in my doddering ever increasing geezeritis.
A few days ago I shot some heavy factory defense loads from a buddies new titanium 4" 629.
While his upgraded grips were quite comfy, and the general recoil "not all that bad".....I was forced to admit at 40' and 24 rounds, hitting that little 6" falling plate 3 times wasn't 'within spec' regardless of whatever feats of engineering made the loud bangs possible.
Not to distract from the metallurgy etc, the last few weeks have exposed me to a couple of the 'large big bore' ideas....in bowling pin competition (around 50') one guy likes to shoot his 454 Casul...no big deal, he generally never hits a single pin, perhaps due to his neurological tremor. Another was cheered onward with his 4" 500 S&W Magnum....after 18 shots no pins were touched.
For my efforts, the joy of shooting works better in my hand in stepping down from the extremes.
Another consideration is: How accurate will a 300 grain bullet be, when fired from a model 25?
I don't know for sure, but your revolver may not have a tight enough twist rate to properly stabilize that projectile at those velocities.
My Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine sure doesn't like them. It's happier with 240 grain bullets, as is my shoulder.
I don't even hot rod my loads in the carbine. If I want more power, I have a .444 that handles the .310 grain bullets much better than my shoulder does.
I have loaded/shot "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads in my Blackhawk .45 Convertible.
Not the most fun I've ever had. 250 grain at 900 fps is a lot more comfortable to shoot, and hits like a train.
I don't know for sure, but your revolver may not have a tight enough twist rate to properly stabilize that projectile at those velocities.
My Marlin 1894P .44 Mag carbine sure doesn't like them. It's happier with 240 grain bullets, as is my shoulder.
I don't even hot rod my loads in the carbine. If I want more power, I have a .444 that handles the .310 grain bullets much better than my shoulder does.
I have loaded/shot "Ruger Only" .45 Colt loads in my Blackhawk .45 Convertible.
Not the most fun I've ever had. 250 grain at 900 fps is a lot more comfortable to shoot, and hits like a train.
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He was probably knocking them over with the muzzle blast.
As for Mr. Jaymo, I'll say that I've had good luck shooting Lee's 300 grain cast bullet from my 45 ACP 22-4 1917, at stated pressures low enough to be safe for the original pre war steel 1917's, and humming around 730 fps, being stabilized well. I don't have the twist rates at hand, but if my revolver can stabilize them, I can only guess the M25 would too. The latest Lyman cast bullet handbook even lists a 300 grain bullet load for the low pressure 45 Colt. 44 Magnum has more trouble stabilizing the same weight of heavy bullet because the bullets are longer, therefore 300 grains is more problematic for .429.
BruceM
Member
LOL You know what I meant. The same load at even +P pressure does not blow out although it is not supported. Take a semi auto and hog out the ramp wider and father into the chamber and it will bulge cases at low pressures. The depth of the less supported area is only part of the story, it is also effected by the size and shape of the area and the mass surrounding the area.
Yes, the notch is the weakest point. But, a tube that was entirely the thickness of the thinnest spot of the cylinder notch would fail even at 14,000 psi. If you don't believe that why are cylinders all so heavy? They could all be as thin as the cylinder notch through out if the thickness of the thinnest spot was the entire story.
Yes, the notch is the weakest point. But, a tube that was entirely the thickness of the thinnest spot of the cylinder notch would fail even at 14,000 psi. If you don't believe that why are cylinders all so heavy? They could all be as thin as the cylinder notch through out if the thickness of the thinnest spot was the entire story.
I suppose that makes sense. Although, a .44 mag 300 grainer is moving a helluva lot faster from my carbine than the 300 grain .45 bullet is from a revolver.
I think I'm going to get some heavy bullet molds for my .45 convertible Blackhawk (large frame).
Even at more sedate velocities, they pack a punch.
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