S&W Model 3 1st Russian with some questions

[BMur]

Black powder loads

Agreed!

You can find Black Powder loads for the 44 WCF. Very common Cowboy action load. Buffalo Arms, Old West Scrounger, Midway, etc. "When available"?

However, you still have the case length problem to content with. All factory loads or Cowboy Action loads will be loaded to the original rifle length cartridge. Which will be too long for your "Modified Cylinder".... Reloading to fit is the answer. IN fact in my opinion it's the only answer. Because as mentioned you might find that the bore dynamics will measure .429 when the 44 WCF is typically .427. It would work but not very well. Handloading is a must here.

I firmly believe that this common alteration was thoroughly understood by the person(s) that performed the chamber/cartridge changeover. Folks back then did a ton of reloading. Collectors of reloading equipment from the Old West on this forum could write a book on all the tools that were available and in their collections.

Just a little bit more history? I've also documented conversions of Single action Army's that were originally 44 rimfire converted to 44WCF...That's heartbreaking to find. An original SAA 44rimfire? $8000 low, $20,000+ high....

Also, a "HUGE" number of Merwin and Hulberts from their original 44 M&H chambering to 44WCF. Also 44 Russians to 44WCF in the Pocket Army. I have one.

So, it was quite common and "obviously" performed during period of use. Just the loss of value alone for an original 44 rimfire SAA? They were worth a lot Pre-WWII.

But say in 1910? The 44 rimfire SAA wouldn't be worth much unless it was converted to a serviceable cartridge. Even earlier if you were living in a remote location? Finding .44 rimfire ammo in say Bodie? Good luck!

Another really strong point? When finding loaded Relics from that period? "VERY OFTEN" you will find the revolver loaded with different cartridges. A long and several shorts as an example. One thread on this forum found a 44 S&W topbreak with 3 types of 44 cartridge loaded in the cylinder. So cartridge availability was most definitely an issue.

Murph

 

[mrcvs]

I don't reload (yet anyway), is 44WCF black powder hard to come by?

The powder would not be specific to .44 WCF. You will be looking for DOg or FFFg powder. Common brands are Goex, Swiss, and Old Eynsford. Ensure when you load you compress the powder 1/16 to 1/8" as you seat the bullet. No air space!!! Probably best to load with someone who has done it before.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I don't reload (yet anyway), is 44WCF black powder hard to come by? I was hoping maybe to put some 44 Russian through it since it sounds mild but in light of the new information I don't think that's happening. On a positive update i fixed the extractor thanks to Mr. Pate and tomorrow I'm picking up the cylinder locking spring and then this old gun will be whole again.

Re-Loading wise -

I have a few old Revolvers which require unique Cartridges, and, it is just how it is sometimes!

Your example - .44 - 40 Brass, but, ( presumed so far to be ) .44 Russian Barrel Bore, you will want to both shorten the Brass a little, to avoid having to seat the Bullet over-deeply where you may then have nothing to crimp against ( unless you elect to use 'Can of Beans' Wadcutter Bullets or to load Round Nose Lead Bullets in backwards ), and to use .44 Russian/.44 Special Diameter Bullets, which are a little larger than those of .44-40.

So your Crimp Die for the Loading Press would be for .44 Russian / .44 Special, while the Shell Holder would be for .44 - 40, and you would have to expand the upper portion of the .44-40 Brass to accept the slightly larger .44 Russian Bullets.

Have you ever re-Loaded Cartridges in the past?

The above may sound a little involved, but, it is all easy and very straight-forward, and fun and satisfying.

I have a nice old S & W 2nd Model Hand Ejector which was originally in .455 Webley.

Somewhere along the way, it got "converted" to accept .45 Colt, AND .45 ACP.

Oye! What a mess!

So, my Solution was to modify .45 Colt Brass to fit in .45 ACP 'Moon Clips', and to expand them so they would accept .456 diameter Bullets.

This worked very nicely to solve Head-Space issues and all other issues and is really a fun Revolver now.

So, it takes what it takes sometimes for these special ones, and, it's worth it..!

As far as .44 Russian being mild.

No, it is not.


If you closed your Eyes, you would not be able to tell Black Powder .44 Russian from Black Powder .45 Colt in these general Barrel Length Revolvers.

.44 Russian was and remains a very 'Healthy' round.

It delivered the ( just about the ) same energy to the Target as standard Loading .45 ACP does.

.44-40 in standard loading was and is a lighter, slightly smaller Bullet than .44 Russian, and in a Rifle, .44-40 develops higher FPS, and it hence more powerful when used in a Rifle or Carbine, than when used in a Revolver.

In a Barrel length such as yours, .44 Russian would likely be the more efficient and powerful Cartridge, even with it's smaller Powder charge.

So, what you end up with in your instance, is a slightly longer .44 Russian, made with a slightly shortened .44-40 Cartridge Case, which can allow you a little more Powder, or, same Powder charge as .44 Russian, and some 'Malto Meal' filler.

 

[Dhs The IV]

You guys sure are a wealth of knowledge. I've never reloaded nor do I have any of the tools. Getting into it seemed like a logical step soon the more I get into shooting. I understand the basic principles of what you guys are saying. I suppose the first step would be to nail down if it is 44 WCF. I'm glad I talked to you guys before just buying a box of Russian and letting her rip.

 

[Oyeboteb]

You guys sure are a wealth of knowledge. I've never reloaded nor do I have any of the tools. Getting into it seemed like a logical step soon the more I get into shooting. I understand the basic principles of what you guys are saying. I suppose the first step would be to nail down if it is 44 WCF. I'm glad I talked to you guys before just buying a box of Russian and letting her rip.

See if you can get a measurement of the Groove-to-Groove of the Barrel...it'd be good to know what that is.

Re-Loading wise - I've been very happy with my Lyman "All American" Loading Press.

It is a four Station Turret Press, and accepts the usual diameter Dies of most any make.

It is sturdy and well made.

One can find examples on ebay, maybe Gunbroker also.

Probably what you ought to do though is get another old S & W in either .44-40, or, .44 Russian, and, start loading for that first.

Then, move on to loading for this one.

That way, you'll already have almost everything you need for this one, and the added complexity of this one will be merely one small step more, from already familiar routines and procedures and equipment.

 

[Dhs The IV]

The powder would not be specific to .44 WCF. You will be looking for DOg or FFFg powder. Common brands are Goex, Swiss, and Old Eynsford. Ensure when you load you compress the powder 1/16 to 1/8" as you seat the bullet. No air space!!! Probably best to load with someone who has done it before.

I know there's not a specific powder for it, I just meant if I could get factory or loaded ammo with black powder. I'm new but not that new lol. So basically I should buy another model in 44 (it's crossed my mind already and I may have shopped around) and a reloading set so I can shoot my model 3 that I bought because it was such a good price. That's fine with me but one of y'all can explain it to my wife lol

 

[BMur]

Photo comparison

Well actually there really isn't any other caliber that it can be but a 44WCF alteration. The bore is still a 44. No other caliber that I'm aware of that bottlenecks from a 45 to a 44? Plus the historical aspect, cartridge availability position, and the fact that I've personally seen so many altered to this caliber.

Photo comparison of a 44 Russian cylinder that I borrowed from another thread and your altered to 44 WCF cylinder. The difference should be clearly visible without too much difficulty?

Yeah, one of the items that is normally very cheap and easy to find are used loading Dies. If you shop around you can find a 3 die set for the 44WCF for $30 or less on a good day.
Get an old iron press like Phil mentioned cheap and you're good to go. But if you really want to save money see photo 3. A simple Lee Loader would allow you to adjust bullet depth, size the case, safely load the round, etc.
So many lead bullets to chose from out there now. Just going with a 180 grain bullet over the standard 200 grain flat point lead bullet will reduce overall case length enough to chamber in this cylinder. Very simple and fun to load.

Actually at this point I think you basically "owe" The forum a range test result for this 44!

Murph

 

[Dhs The IV]

Yes sir I will definitely look into that haha. I got it all working now with some help and I was able to borrow a 44-40 cartridge. Sure enough it seems to fit. Maybe the Smith who helped me with it can help me make some rounds. Or I'd be willing to buy a few rounds from one of you all if you could fix me up some. Lock up is ok and she seems pretty much in time. The barrel was poorly cut and I bet its not going to be a target shooter. I got a welding mask at work I can strap on and try her out lol.

 

[Dhs The IV]

You know what he had a bunch of part guns too. Maybe he can fit a cylinder for me and I can have two calibers.

 

[Oyeboteb]

You know what he had a bunch of part guns too. Maybe he can fit a cylinder for me and I can have two calibers.

I need some parts...or, I need a Mainspring for the New Model 3, anyway...just that...

Can you message me his contact info?

Just get a .44 Russian Cylinder if he has one, ( and set the present modified one, aside ) then you will be on easy street!

 

[iby]

Oyebote

Smith and Wesson Revolver Parts

 

[Dhs The IV]

I can ask him if that would be ok to pass along his info and get back to you.

 

[BMur]

Replacement cylinder?

Replacement parts are pretty scarce for the older Smith & Wesson "Large Caliber" revolvers. I've seen plenty of 44 cal double action parts that go for a lot and are stripped as well. When and if found? 44cal single action parts don't go cheap that's for sure. $100 would be a gift for a 44 Russian stripped cylinder lacking all hardware.
You would also need the complete ejector since this one is now modified and would NOT function on a 44 Russian cylinder due to the head diameter being much larger on the WCF 44. Basically it would skip by the smaller Russian case head and would not eject the shells. A complete cylinder? with all the hardware? Might cost more than you paid for this gun. If you can find one?

I am sorry to be the bringer of tough news but there is also a problem with various 44 Russian models. Parts often do not swap. Smith & Wesson always boasted that the parts are machined with very tight tolerances? Which is true. However, when new models are introduced? Trying to mount the old model cylinder, trigger guard or barrel on the new model frame? good luck! At the very least you would have to machine the parts. I've done it and it ain't fun! Because the parts are so hard to find I've had to make parts fit just to get the gun functioning.

So, even if you are "extremely" lucky enough to find a Single action 44 Russian cylinder? It would also have to come off of the exact same model that you have.

Notice also that your older Russian model SA has the older rack type ejector? Where exactly are you going to find that? So just finding any 44 Russian cylinder from any of 4 or more Russian SA models? will not work on your older Russian model.



Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

Smith and Wesson Revolver Parts

Thanks iby!

 

[Oyeboteb]

I can ask him if that would be ok to pass along his info and get back to you.

Thanks Dhs The IV..!

 

[Dhs The IV]

Replacement parts are pretty scarce for the older Smith & Wesson "Large Caliber" revolvers. I've seen plenty of 44 cal double action parts that go for a lot and are stripped as well. When and if found? 44cal single action parts don't go cheap that's for sure. $100 would be a gift for a 44 Russian stripped cylinder lacking all hardware.
You would also need the complete ejector since this one is now modified and would NOT function on a 44 Russian cylinder due to the head diameter being much larger on the WCF 44. Basically it would skip by the smaller Russian case head and would not eject the shells. A complete cylinder? with all the hardware? Might cost more than you paid for this gun. If you can find one?

I am sorry to be the bringer of tough news but there is also a problem with various 44 Russian models. Parts often do not swap. Smith & Wesson always boasted that the parts are machined with very tight tolerances? Which is true. However, when new models are introduced? Trying to mount the old model cylinder, trigger guard or barrel on the new model frame? good luck! At the very least you would have to machine the parts. I've done it and it ain't fun! Because the parts are so hard to find I've had to make parts fit just to get the gun functioning.

So, even if you are "extremely" lucky enough to find a Single action 44 Russian cylinder? It would also have to come off of the exact same model that you have.

Notice also that your older Russian model SA has the older rack type ejector? Where exactly are you going to find that? So just finding any 44 Russian cylinder from any of 4 or more Russian SA models? will not work on your older Russian model.



Murph

Sir you didn't happen to see the draws full of parts guns that I did when I had the cylinder stop repaired. I already talked it over a little with the gentleman who did the work on it. He told me he fabricated the extractor stars from time to time. I' not totally ignorant of the mechanical workings of these guns. I know you can't just slap in a cylinder for any revolver, not just this one. If I can spend oh say less than a $1000 in total getting the gun running I figure I'm ahead of the game, even if it's not "worth" that it's my very own model 3. If it never shoots, you know what so be it. I didn't expect it ever to when I bought it. If I spend 20 years looking for a cylinder I have time to do that. I don't know as much about these old guns as most of you guys, I knew nothing about these old cartridges until I got the gun because it's my first bonafide antique gun. I known that the 1st/2nd American and
1st Russian are different than the proceeding models. The barrel might be an American as was discussed earlier. I don't mind being told when I'm wrong and I'm always more than happy to learn any new information I can about these guns. I'll figure it out one way or another

 

[Oyeboteb]

Sir you didn't happen to see the draws full of parts guns that I did when I had the cylinder stop repaired. I already talked it over a little with the gentleman who did the work on it. He told me he fabricated the extractor stars from time to time. I' not totally ignorant of the mechanical workings of these guns. I know you can't just slap in a cylinder for any revolver, not just this one. If I can spend oh say less than a $1000 in total getting the gun running I figure I'm ahead of the game, even if it's not "worth" that it's my very own model 3. If it never shoots, you know what so be it. I didn't expect it ever to when I bought it. If I spend 20 years looking for a cylinder I have time to do that. I don't know as much about these old guns as most of you guys, I knew nothing about these old cartridges until I got the gun because it's my first bonafide antique gun. I known that the 1st/2nd American and
1st Russian are different than the proceeding models. The barrel might be an American as was discussed earlier. I don't mind being told when I'm wrong and I'm always more than happy to learn any new information I can about these guns. I'll figure it out one way or another

How are the Cylinders themselves different between the various Model 3 Russians?

 

[Dhs The IV]

Some of them use a gear and some of them have a "finger" or hook looking thing. The first model Russian is the same as the 1st and 2nd American. However the 2nd Russian the one that looks like the classic Russian with the finger tang and human back has a shorter ejector housing. I'd recommend Antique firearms disassembly by David Chicoine for a more detailed breakdown of the differences. It's been extremely helpful for me.

 

[raljr1]

It's been extremely helpful for me.

I have a beat up, cut down, renickeled model 3. This guy put mine in working condition. Made some parts, had some parts and adapted some others. You won't be disappointed. Turn around was good too.


Chris Hirsch
13531 Oakwood Ln.
Sugar Land, TX 77498
281-491-1680

 

[Oyeboteb]

Hi I joined this forum after a recommendation from a member, I've browsed it a lot and pulled a lot of good information on it. I'm fairly new to S&W revolvers but I am pretty much all in at this point. I like all of them from the tip ups to the modern guns. Recently I came across a model 3 at what I think is a good price wallowing in the antique counter no one looks at. I didn't know anything really specific about model 3s a few weeks ago except a little about the Schofield. Anyway it's had the barrel cut to 5" and the front sight soldered back in place. I believe the nickel is original because the extractor is blued. It has matching assembly #s on everything, the grips don't match though they number about 10000 to early. It has the steps in the cylinder and it was the tag said Russian. Cylinder length confirms it. But it's not stamped Russian model and I was wondering if that's common? Most of the ones I've seen are. Serial number is 31575. I'm also looking for a leaf spring for the cylinder stop. I've tried Jacks first and a lot of other places and had no luck. I've tried to learn a lot about all the old models since picking this up. Any information you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated thank you

So...do we know for sure, that this a 1st Model Russian?

And, not a 2nd Model American?

If it is the latter, your Barrel's Groove to Groove would be a lot larger than .44 Russian or .44 - 40.

Did you say earlier on that .45 ACP drops right in the Cylinder?

See if you can find a way to Slug the Barrel, and or measure your Groove-to-Groove...