S&W Model 52 Chamber Leading

[jbrown13]

Yesterday I tried to shoot 150 rounds thru the Model 52, but after 90 rounds I had so much lead built up in the chamber that the pistol slide would not completely return to battery because of the lead build-up in the chamber. The load was 2.8 grains of Bullseye under a Zero 148 grain swaged lead HBWC sized to .357". The brass was mixed and trimmed to 1.145". HBWC seated flush with a slight roll crimp. Is this normal for a Model 52? If not, what do you think I can do to alleviate it?

Tuesday I shot 165 rounds of the same bullet and brass combo, loaded with 2.7 grains of AA#2, and although I had a little lead build-up in the chamber, it was not enough to keep the slide from returning to battery.

In both instances the barrel leading was minimal, and what there was was towards the chamber end of the barrel. I have a few ideas to try, but wanted to bounce it off you guys to see if I might be missing the obvious.

 

[TSQUARED]

I have never expereinced your problem using 2.8 gr. Bullseye and the Remington 148 gr. LHBWC.

 

[sjmjax]

I've seen quite a bit of lead build up in the chamber of my 52-1.

Mostly shooting Zero swaged HBWC as well but with 3.0 grains of 231. I also use the same OAL and crimping technique as you. Interestingly most of the lead build up forms on the top of the chamber.

I suspect this is to be poor case obituration due to the low pressure loads.

But, it has never gotten so bad as to interfere with chambering or slide going into battery. I typically shoot about 200 rounds per session. It is something of a pain to clean out.

 

[Andy Griffith]

I have never tried the Zero bullets, but maybe they are a bit on the hard side? Also, there is a chance that the .38 cases you are using may be a bit short for the chamber and not come completely to the rifling?

Don't take for granted that it's several small problems that have added themselves together to cause the complication, and not just one item that causes the problem.

 

[jbrown13]

I've seen quite a bit of lead build up in the chamber of my 52-1.

Mostly shooting Zero swaged HBWC as well but with 3.0 grains of 231. I also use the same OAL and crimping technique as you. Interestingly most of the lead build up forms on the top of the chamber.

I suspect this is to be poor case obituration due to the low pressure loads.

But, it has never gotten so bad as to interfere with chambering or slide going into battery. I typically shoot about 200 rounds per session. It is something of a pain to clean out.

sjmjax, the top of the chamber is where I'm seeing it too and I agree with your reasoning. Pain in the patoot. 3.0 grains of W231 is a load I also use, and have 150 ready for my next range trip. If I could go 200 rounds that would suit me fine since I usually shoot 150 rounds, twice a week. My chamber must be a little tighter than yours. Sure would like to figure out how to get rid of it altogether.

 

[boatbum101]

I use the Zero & Remington HBWC's in my 52-2 & have not expierenced this problem . I also trim cases to 1.145 but taper crimp to .368 - .369 . I also use a heavier charge ie 3.1 - 3.2 W231 , 3.6 VV N340 or 2.9 AA #2 or VV N320 . These group better in my gun than 2.7 - 2.9 BE , especially @ 50yds . I'd go no more than 3.0 BE max with a 148 HBWC . I must confess I like a little slower powder in 38 target loads . Hope this helps .

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

DO YOU SEAT AND CRIMP WITH THE SAME DIE?IF SO INCREASE THE SEATING DEPTH TO JUST BELOW FLUSH. SOMETIMES WHEN SEATING AND CRIMPING WITH THE SAME DIE. AS THE CRIMP IS APPLIED YOU ARE STILL PUSHING THE BULLET AND A SMALL WHISKER WILL BE SHAVED OFF AT THE CASE MOUTH. THESE TEND TO BUILD UP WHERE THE CHAMBER ENDS AND THE RIFLING BEGINS. SOMETIMES THE WHISKER FALLS OFF AND OTHER TIMES IT BARELY HOLDS ON . YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT MOST OF THE TIME BUT IF YOU PULL A BULLET IT EASIER TO SEE.THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM IF YOU SEAT WITH ONE DIE THAN CRIMP WIT ANOTHER. JP

 

[RGPM1A]

DO YOU SEAT AND CRIMP WITH THE SAME DIE?IF SO INCREASE THE SEATING DEPTH TO JUST BELOW FLUSH. SOMETIMES WHEN SEATING AND CRIMPING WITH THE SAME DIE. AS THE CRIMP IS APPLIED YOU ARE STILL PUSHING THE BULLET AND A SMALL WHISKER WILL BE SHAVED OFF AT THE CASE MOUTH. THESE TEND TO BUILD UP WHERE THE CHAMBER ENDS AND THE RIFLING BEGINS. SOMETIMES THE WHISKER FALLS OFF AND OTHER TIMES IT BARELY HOLDS ON . YOU CAN'T REALLY SEE IT MOST OF THE TIME BUT IF YOU PULL A BULLET IT EASIER TO SEE.THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM IF YOU SEAT WITH ONE DIE THAN CRIMP WIT ANOTHER. JP

+1. also you might try replacing your recoil spring. They sack out after about 3000 to 5000 rounds and get a little weak.

 

[gregintenn]

Try a little more crimp. I had a leading problem, and a tighter crimp solved it almost completely. I guess it holds the bullet in the case long enough for more pressure to build up and cause the bullet to more fully obturate. I don't know, but I do know it solved my problem.

 

[jbrown13]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. Really appreciate it. I seat and crimp in separate operations, Redding seating die and RCBS crimp die.

 

[CGM]

Remember that the 52 is a match gun and tolerances are smaller. By design, they are going to be fussier.

A common practice that you will see at 2700 bullseye matches, especially with the M52, is that shooters will have a barrel wire brush bent at a 90 degree angle so that they can do a quick brush out of the chamber every so often. In addition, it is common practice to put a drop of oil on the top round in your magazine every now and then to keep the chamber running. This is particularly important in timed and rapid fire to avoid misfires.

Good luck... hope this helps. At the end of the day, I stopped using my 52 in competition. I never got comfortable enough with the gun and it's inherent fussiness. I have better results with the 1911 platform.

 

[jbrown13]

OK, I went to the range again and made some significant headway. I seated the Zero bullets 0.004" (per micrometer seating die) deeper and turned my crimp die down 1/2 turn. I shot 165 rounds loaded with 3.0 of W231 w/o issues, followed by 60 rounds loaded with 2.8 of Bullseye which produced issues. Some of the BE rounds would not go into battery without help from my thumb.

Next batch I'm going to forget about BE, seat another 0.002" deeper and up the powder charge slightly as suggested by one of you all. Any other suggestions?

Now, if I could only find an easy way to clean the lead out of the chamber to get it ready for the next range trip.

 

[PattonTime]

52 Chamber leading

I use Berry's plated HBWC bullets .
I have loaded up to 3.5 grains of Bullseye shot fine but have settled on 3.0 grains as plenty to cycle action and that is all that is necessary.
I have also had very good luck with 3.5 grains of American Select it is very clean and shoots well.
I have pretty much given up on cast , plated are a little more expensive but I shoot mostly indoors and don't like the smoke from the lube.
I have never found any difference in accuracy from plated and I can shoot all day long !!!

 

[jbrown13]

boatbum101, tried your suggestion of taper crimping to .368" - .369" over 2.9 grains of VV N320, and my chamber leading completely disappeared. Shot 2 sessions of 150 rounds each, one session with Zero bullets and the other session with Remington bullets, and neither bullet leaded my chamber nor my barrel. Many thanks for the suggestion.

 

[boatbum101]

I learned that from Jerry Keefer . That & preferred powders for 38 special 148 HBWC accuracy are WST & W231 . He's an outstanding 'smith & has done tons of load testing . N320 is pretty close to W231 but cleaner burning . I've also had very good results from 3.6 N340 . 148 HBWC's demand a faster twist for ultimate accuracy . PPC guns are usually built with 1 in 12 or 1 in 10 twist for that reason . Slower S&W twist demands proper loading techniques & if followed can produce acceptible accuracy . It's not unusal to see some " tipping " @ 50yds from S&W barrels . I'm glad you were able to solve your problem . If you have them also try 2.7 WST & 3.1 - 3.2 W231 . See attached 50yd targets shot offhand with my 52-2 & W231 / N340 loads .

 

[Chris_D]

Boatbum,

I have a few questions about your 52...

What grips do you have?

What scope mount is that?

Chris