StrawHat
Member
Looking forward to the next installment.
Kevin
Kevin
S&W n.3
- Thread starter Pilot27
- Start date
new2S&W
Member
mmaher94087
Member
Notice the size of the zeros on #1030 above. I think a re-stamp can be ruled out on the OP's #1110 revolver.
I am not knowledgeable about these older S&W's but will offer a thought regarding the newer parts discussion.
S&W has been known to take in an older gun and not only upgrade it with newer parts but also add stamps that were not seen or on the gun when originally manufactured. In their mind they were improving an older model tool, to collectors it is devastating injury to a collectible firearm.
That said, is it possible that this gun went back to the factory and was refinished and parts changed or upgraded to produce what is seen today???
S&W has been known to take in an older gun and not only upgrade it with newer parts but also add stamps that were not seen or on the gun when originally manufactured. In their mind they were improving an older model tool, to collectors it is devastating injury to a collectible firearm.
That said, is it possible that this gun went back to the factory and was refinished and parts changed or upgraded to produce what is seen today???
If you are not sure where to look, remove the stocks and look over both sides of the butt-frame to find the assembly numbers/letters. There will be another matching on the rear of the cylinder and one on the rear of the top frame where the latch is located. All those should match. About the only other stamping on these old guns is the address stamp on the top rib of the barrel.
I am still on the fence about being 100% certain of a refinish. I tried to find one pit or mark on the gun that indicated re-bluing and cannot find it. I think the members are missing the important fact that the gun has the smoothest metal, near perfect screws, with little wear anywhere, so why would it have been refinished in the first place?? I wonder if it could have been cleaned resulting in a lightened color finish or gone over with a instant blue that changed the coloration somewhat? It remains a strong condition gun and probably in the top end of any that one will find in this model?? Hands on inspection with a qualified expert is the only way to be certain of the answer.
Over the years several Model 3s have shown up with mismatched serial numbered stocks and I wonder if yours left the factory that way? With the US contract guns being made alongside the commercial guns, it would certainly be possible that the switch was intentional. It is said that the factory never wasted anything and if there was a defective revolver frame coming out of the assembly process, it would have been stripped of every good part and those parts would simply go into another gun, including the stocks, so . . . ??? Can you tell if the fit is perfect or not quite up to the standards of S&W? Also, with the extreme curved butt-frame, if they fit well, probably were original.
I am still on the fence about being 100% certain of a refinish. I tried to find one pit or mark on the gun that indicated re-bluing and cannot find it. I think the members are missing the important fact that the gun has the smoothest metal, near perfect screws, with little wear anywhere, so why would it have been refinished in the first place?? I wonder if it could have been cleaned resulting in a lightened color finish or gone over with a instant blue that changed the coloration somewhat? It remains a strong condition gun and probably in the top end of any that one will find in this model?? Hands on inspection with a qualified expert is the only way to be certain of the answer.
Over the years several Model 3s have shown up with mismatched serial numbered stocks and I wonder if yours left the factory that way? With the US contract guns being made alongside the commercial guns, it would certainly be possible that the switch was intentional. It is said that the factory never wasted anything and if there was a defective revolver frame coming out of the assembly process, it would have been stripped of every good part and those parts would simply go into another gun, including the stocks, so . . . ??? Can you tell if the fit is perfect or not quite up to the standards of S&W? Also, with the extreme curved butt-frame, if they fit well, probably were original.
new2S&W
Member
Besides the size of the number 0 in the photo of the revover in question, it appears that the area on the frame butt has been either ground down or perhaps chemically etched to remove the original serial number. I'm not saying it was done maliciously; it may have been illegible and was re-stamped for clarity purposes.
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Quality Restoration
I'm not trying to stand above anyone on this forum. I'm only "SHARING" what I have been lucky enough to experience ok?
I knew a gunsmith who passed away years ago but he was beyond an artist. What he could do with metal work( welding/refinishing/restoration) was beyond amazing. It was "unbelievable" is what it was. You had to see his work.
He was the one I took my "Baltimore Police" Baby Russian to perform a major repair to the frame. Both posts were sheared off where the latch met the frame. Nothing but a hole basically.
When he was finished? YOU COULD NOT TELL! I mean it was Perfect! NO evidence of a weld, NO evidence of a repair. It looked totally original!! I wish I had a before and after photo. Many collectors at that time went to him to repair "YOU NAME IT". He could do it and the results were unquestionably PERFECT!
Then he showed me how he would repair pitted metal and "RE-STAMP" serial numbers from a "RESTORATION" standpoint. It was a 10 step process. I won't get into it but What you see on the OP's gun is a 4 step process. Re-surface, re-stamp, Peen, refinish.
If you follow this process what is left is exactly what you see on the OP's gun.....Around the RE-STAMPED 1's you see a cloudy finish. This is the result of "HAMMERING" the metal after re-stamping to make the die imprint look old. Simple as that.
LOOK at the photo and yellow arrows with an open mind and you can clearly see the discoloration around the numbers.
They have "CLEARLY" been re-stamped and peened. For whatever reason.
If you understood the step by step process of restoration you would recognize this type of result. It's very basic.
If you followed the old gunsmith's 10 step process? Absolutely NO WAY you could tell. The result would be Identical to factory.
Murph
I'm not trying to stand above anyone on this forum. I'm only "SHARING" what I have been lucky enough to experience ok?
I knew a gunsmith who passed away years ago but he was beyond an artist. What he could do with metal work( welding/refinishing/restoration) was beyond amazing. It was "unbelievable" is what it was. You had to see his work.
He was the one I took my "Baltimore Police" Baby Russian to perform a major repair to the frame. Both posts were sheared off where the latch met the frame. Nothing but a hole basically.
When he was finished? YOU COULD NOT TELL! I mean it was Perfect! NO evidence of a weld, NO evidence of a repair. It looked totally original!! I wish I had a before and after photo. Many collectors at that time went to him to repair "YOU NAME IT". He could do it and the results were unquestionably PERFECT!
Then he showed me how he would repair pitted metal and "RE-STAMP" serial numbers from a "RESTORATION" standpoint. It was a 10 step process. I won't get into it but What you see on the OP's gun is a 4 step process. Re-surface, re-stamp, Peen, refinish.
If you follow this process what is left is exactly what you see on the OP's gun.....Around the RE-STAMPED 1's you see a cloudy finish. This is the result of "HAMMERING" the metal after re-stamping to make the die imprint look old. Simple as that.
LOOK at the photo and yellow arrows with an open mind and you can clearly see the discoloration around the numbers.
They have "CLEARLY" been re-stamped and peened. For whatever reason.
If you understood the step by step process of restoration you would recognize this type of result. It's very basic.
If you followed the old gunsmith's 10 step process? Absolutely NO WAY you could tell. The result would be Identical to factory.
Murph
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Thanks for the photo of specimen 1030, and also for the ones of the inside of the grip. The reddish grips on this gun had no markings that I can recall.
About factory re using parts that sounds plausible, but I still think they would stamp matching marks of at least the main parts of the revolver.
The gun does not only look magnificent, it also feels this way. I had it in my hands, fits are damn perfect, when cocking it is smoth and absolutely no sloppiness can be felt. If I have to compare it I would to winding a high quality swiss timepiece. Earlier I made reference to european dueling pistols, since that is what I'm used to, and this revolver feels like a work from Le Page or Gastinne Renette.
About craftmanship I also knew a fine restorer able to perform the unthinkable in terms of quality, including the complete copy of a dueling pistol so a pair could be complete. And I mean from scratch. To repair metal beyond belief, wood, whatever might be needed... I'm not saying this S/W is one not made by S/W in the 1870's, otherwise cost of making such "replica" would be unthinkable.
Thanks also for the tutorial on were to find markings. I wish I knew!
Next time I get the revolver in my hands hopefully we will get more answers.
About factory re using parts that sounds plausible, but I still think they would stamp matching marks of at least the main parts of the revolver.
The gun does not only look magnificent, it also feels this way. I had it in my hands, fits are damn perfect, when cocking it is smoth and absolutely no sloppiness can be felt. If I have to compare it I would to winding a high quality swiss timepiece. Earlier I made reference to european dueling pistols, since that is what I'm used to, and this revolver feels like a work from Le Page or Gastinne Renette.
About craftmanship I also knew a fine restorer able to perform the unthinkable in terms of quality, including the complete copy of a dueling pistol so a pair could be complete. And I mean from scratch. To repair metal beyond belief, wood, whatever might be needed... I'm not saying this S/W is one not made by S/W in the 1870's, otherwise cost of making such "replica" would be unthinkable.
Thanks also for the tutorial on were to find markings. I wish I knew!
Next time I get the revolver in my hands hopefully we will get more answers.
In my unprofessional opinion it looks like an un refinished piece, quite possibly worked on by someone knowledgeable certainly no bubba job. I think its beautiful, I never cared for standard SAA Colt stocks and much prefer shooting Bisley's which have that inward curl to the stock. I have a Bisley in 44-40 and enjoy shooting it very much. I have a Colt SAA in .44 special that is a cavalry model with long barrel and although it does shoot nicely it is nowhere near as comfortable as the Bisley, especially for my larger hand.
new2S&W
Member
A quick question for those who own a model 3 first model American:
When holding the pistol outstretched at arms length, it feels like the pistol is front balanced. That is, the business end tends to pitch down with the center of gravity being around the front of the cylinder. Of course I have never held it fully loaded due to lack of .44 American ammo. Does it balance out when loaded?
I also find it almost sized for a rather small hand.
When holding the pistol outstretched at arms length, it feels like the pistol is front balanced. That is, the business end tends to pitch down with the center of gravity being around the front of the cylinder. Of course I have never held it fully loaded due to lack of .44 American ammo. Does it balance out when loaded?
I also find it almost sized for a rather small hand.
There is nothing small about the Model 3. It has an 8" barrel, 14" overall, ample sized stocks, and about 2.5 pounds, and yes it is front heavy, but it is not an overly heavy gun and can be held on target with one hand. If you want to shoot a truly front heavy gun, try a Colt Walker that weighs around 4.5 pounds! One can barely hold it up at arms length.
I used to shoot my 44 Americans and 44 Russians, but have sold them all. I do have a Franklin Mint reproduction and below are a couple pictures comparing the size of the American with a Colt SAA and a N frame S&W. I also threw in my Uberti Colt Walker for fun.
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american.
I agree with Mur.
I don't think that the OP believes that this gun has original finish, so it does not offend to say so.
I previously posted that 2 of the sideplate screw heads have been filed flat. The finish on the filed screws matches the rest of the gun exactly.
These are pics of an unmolested 1st Model American
I agree with Mur.
I don't think that the OP believes that this gun has original finish, so it does not offend to say so.
I previously posted that 2 of the sideplate screw heads have been filed flat. The finish on the filed screws matches the rest of the gun exactly.
These are pics of an unmolested 1st Model American
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mmaher94087
Member
My non-expert opinion after 60 years of collecting Smith & Wesson antique revolvers:
This #1110 American has been refinished at some point as evidenced by the flat sideplate screw heads and the overall color and mottled look of the bluing. It probably is an old Cold Blue.
The stocks have been replaced. The originals were dark stained Walnut.
I do not believe the frame has been replaced by a newer frame and re-numbered. The presence of a plugged lanyard ring hole associated with a later frame is not of the type of plugged hole seen from the factory leading me to believe that it is a post factory, gunsmith addition. The plugged hole appears to be countersunk which the factory never supplied. The screw does not appear to be an oval head type used by the factory.
To further my belief that the frame is original stems from the lack of a firing pin bushing in the recoil shield which is a factory feature incorporated into a later frames that had the lanyard ring or the plugged lanyard ring hole.
Since the revolver appears to have been "cleaned up" at least on the sideplate and screws I will venture that the bottom of the frame received the same treatment. Since stamping numbers will slightly raise the metal when struck, I'll guess that the clean-up of the revolver included work on the butt and the discoloration around the serial numbers is the effect of cold blue over new metal next to the original finish.
This #1110 American has been refinished at some point as evidenced by the flat sideplate screw heads and the overall color and mottled look of the bluing. It probably is an old Cold Blue.
The stocks have been replaced. The originals were dark stained Walnut.
I do not believe the frame has been replaced by a newer frame and re-numbered. The presence of a plugged lanyard ring hole associated with a later frame is not of the type of plugged hole seen from the factory leading me to believe that it is a post factory, gunsmith addition. The plugged hole appears to be countersunk which the factory never supplied. The screw does not appear to be an oval head type used by the factory.
To further my belief that the frame is original stems from the lack of a firing pin bushing in the recoil shield which is a factory feature incorporated into a later frames that had the lanyard ring or the plugged lanyard ring hole.
Since the revolver appears to have been "cleaned up" at least on the sideplate and screws I will venture that the bottom of the frame received the same treatment. Since stamping numbers will slightly raise the metal when struck, I'll guess that the clean-up of the revolver included work on the butt and the discoloration around the serial numbers is the effect of cold blue over new metal next to the original finish.
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