I don't know much about these serial is 8569 located on the butt not front of grip strap. Is this the normal front sight also ?
I took a few pictures.
I took a few pictures.
S&W perfected 1st model or 2nd model ????
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That is a second model, and that is a normal front sight. Looks to be in very nice condition. Have you checked for an Olympic chamber? (Insert a 22LR, and if it needs to be "shoved" in the last 3/16" or so that is an Olympic chamber).
OP
Have you checked for an Olympic chamber?
I did check that and it wasn't
Unfortunately it's not mine.
A LGS friend has it and I was trying to help him
I did check that and it wasn't
Unfortunately it's not mine.
A LGS friend has it and I was trying to help him
Just a point of order, your single shot is not a Perfected, but simply a Second Model Single Shot. The First Model Single Shot is also called the Model of 1891 and will have that stamping on the barrel. The Third Model Single Shot is also called the Perfected, since it used the 38 Perfected Double Action frame. Nice looking Single Shot. Have you shot it yet?
Well, here we go again!
First, this is a FIRST Model----not a 2nd Model. Any and all who are in doubt are invited to place their $1,000 wager on the table, which I shall cover. Next, get a letter----which I shall pay for----IF the letter says it's a 2nd Model----which it absolutely, positively WILL NOT.
This is what some folks like to call a "transitional" model. I don't know why they want to call it that, because it's simply an example of S&W using up old parts. The old part in this case is the frame. It's a 1st Model frame------two pins---one for the trigger---one for the cylinder stop/bolt.
Does it look like a 2nd Model? Absolutely----and if it carried a 2nd Model serial number, it would letter as a 2nd Model. It does not carry a 2nd Model number-----and it will not letter as a 2nd Model. (See wager offer above.)
In other words (literally), there are more than a few SS's out there which are configured EXACTLY the same as this one. Some of them are 1st Models. Some of them are 2nd Models. The serial number is/will be the ONLY difference. (And as far as the serial number being on the butt goes, we consider that as a mistake. The guy who stamped the number there would have a hard time understanding that----as in: Who cares?
Bottom Line: There are several odd-ball SS's out there (most being some variation between 1st and 2nd Model). This is one of them. It is also one of them with the lowest 1st Model number I know of----which will most certainly get Terry Wagner's attention.
Ralph Tremaine
And by the by----if the frame/barrel/sight numbers don't match, it then becomes a lump of coal.
First, this is a FIRST Model----not a 2nd Model. Any and all who are in doubt are invited to place their $1,000 wager on the table, which I shall cover. Next, get a letter----which I shall pay for----IF the letter says it's a 2nd Model----which it absolutely, positively WILL NOT.
This is what some folks like to call a "transitional" model. I don't know why they want to call it that, because it's simply an example of S&W using up old parts. The old part in this case is the frame. It's a 1st Model frame------two pins---one for the trigger---one for the cylinder stop/bolt.
Does it look like a 2nd Model? Absolutely----and if it carried a 2nd Model serial number, it would letter as a 2nd Model. It does not carry a 2nd Model number-----and it will not letter as a 2nd Model. (See wager offer above.)
In other words (literally), there are more than a few SS's out there which are configured EXACTLY the same as this one. Some of them are 1st Models. Some of them are 2nd Models. The serial number is/will be the ONLY difference. (And as far as the serial number being on the butt goes, we consider that as a mistake. The guy who stamped the number there would have a hard time understanding that----as in: Who cares?
Bottom Line: There are several odd-ball SS's out there (most being some variation between 1st and 2nd Model). This is one of them. It is also one of them with the lowest 1st Model number I know of----which will most certainly get Terry Wagner's attention.
Ralph Tremaine
And by the by----if the frame/barrel/sight numbers don't match, it then becomes a lump of coal.
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OP
Mr. Tremaine....I won't take your wager.
Thanks for the detailed explanation on these....I learned a bit
Thanks for the detailed explanation on these....I learned a bit
Ralph, you got to help me out a little bit here. I see no recoil shield, which was one hallmark of the First Model. I do see a frame that looks exactly like all Second Model frames. I do not see the Model of 1891 stamping on the barrel, but see what I would expect on a Second Model. I cannot find anything that looks like First Model. Are we sure that the serial number ranges we have all come to take as gospel are right?
I am usually wrong here, but if a gun completely matches the construction and appearance of a given model, shouldn't it be named that model regardless of the serial number??
I am usually wrong here, but if a gun completely matches the construction and appearance of a given model, shouldn't it be named that model regardless of the serial number??
OP
I'm confused too.
Crossv, your 6" single shot may or may not be a 2nd Model. I grant you it looks like a 2nd Model (from a distance), but it's built on a 1st Model (two pin) frame. If its serial number is below 4,600 and something (and probably quite a bit below that), it will (almost certainly) letter as a 2nd Model. If, on the other hand, its number is (typically) in the high 'teens/low twenties (18-19-20,XXX), then it will not.
Crossv, your 6" single shot may or may not be a 2nd Model. I grant you it looks like a 2nd Model (from a distance), but it's built on a 1st Model (two pin) frame. If its serial number is below 4,600 and something (and probably quite a bit below that), it will (almost certainly) letter as a 2nd Model. If, on the other hand, its number is (typically) in the high 'teens/low twenties (18-19-20,XXX), then it will not.
OP
Gary I "think" the 2 pins right above trigger make it a first frame ?
The recoil shield aspect is throwing me off also.
The recoil shield aspect is throwing me off also.
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deadin
US Veteran
Ralph,
You may be putting too much emphasis on defining a model strictly by serial number. Yes , S&W was known for using up old parts, but if this piece was built AS a 2nd Model, using a surplus 1st Model frame which they did further machine work on to resemble a 2nd Model and, I am confident, sold as a 2nd Model, shouldn't it be considered a 2nd Model?
After all, there are 2 pin and 3 pin .32 Army tip-ups and are just considered as a variation of the Old Army. Why shouldn't this just be considered a variation of the 2nd Model?
(Just offering a counter opinion to defining everything strictly by serial number....If it Looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck...
)
You may be putting too much emphasis on defining a model strictly by serial number. Yes , S&W was known for using up old parts, but if this piece was built AS a 2nd Model, using a surplus 1st Model frame which they did further machine work on to resemble a 2nd Model and, I am confident, sold as a 2nd Model, shouldn't it be considered a 2nd Model?
After all, there are 2 pin and 3 pin .32 Army tip-ups and are just considered as a variation of the Old Army. Why shouldn't this just be considered a variation of the 2nd Model?
(Just offering a counter opinion to defining everything strictly by serial number....If it Looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck...
)With one exception, I choose to define any given item as the factory records define it-----what the letter says.
That one exception has to do with my 8" .32 1st Model SS. I believe this to be a righteous gun. Jinks has examined it---eyes on/hands on. He too believes it's a righteous gun. His letter says it's a 10" .22. So---------------------------------
It was not/is not my intent to dictate what anyone chooses to call any given gun. They should feel free to call it anything they like. When they call it contrary to what the factory records call it, I will choose to call them confused.
Ralph Tremaine
I believe it may help one's thought process to become familiar with the history of S&W's entry into the SS pistol business (how and why the 1st Model SS came to be). I refer you to Jinks' "History" (I think.). Having digested that, sit and muse a bit. I suspect you may come to think of the 2nd Model SS as what the 1st Model should have been right from the get-go. And at that point you will come to understand and appreciate all the messing around which transpired with the 1st Model on its way to becoming the 2nd Model. And having said that, it occurs to me I don't know right off if S&W referred to/thought of the 2nd Model as an actual SECOND model or not. Someone with some period catalogs may be able to enlighten me. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn they did not----although the fact what we (collectors) call a 2nd Model has its own serial number series suggests to the contrary.
And having noted the 2nd Model has its own serial number series, one must then begin to wonder why the 3rd Model does not-------------------Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??!!!
That one exception has to do with my 8" .32 1st Model SS. I believe this to be a righteous gun. Jinks has examined it---eyes on/hands on. He too believes it's a righteous gun. His letter says it's a 10" .22. So---------------------------------
It was not/is not my intent to dictate what anyone chooses to call any given gun. They should feel free to call it anything they like. When they call it contrary to what the factory records call it, I will choose to call them confused.
Ralph Tremaine
I believe it may help one's thought process to become familiar with the history of S&W's entry into the SS pistol business (how and why the 1st Model SS came to be). I refer you to Jinks' "History" (I think.). Having digested that, sit and muse a bit. I suspect you may come to think of the 2nd Model SS as what the 1st Model should have been right from the get-go. And at that point you will come to understand and appreciate all the messing around which transpired with the 1st Model on its way to becoming the 2nd Model. And having said that, it occurs to me I don't know right off if S&W referred to/thought of the 2nd Model as an actual SECOND model or not. Someone with some period catalogs may be able to enlighten me. I would not be the least bit surprised to learn they did not----although the fact what we (collectors) call a 2nd Model has its own serial number series suggests to the contrary.
And having noted the 2nd Model has its own serial number series, one must then begin to wonder why the 3rd Model does not-------------------Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm??!!!
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OP
And by the by----if the frame/barrel/sight numbers don't match, it then becomes a lump of coal.
I looked at the gun afterward and not sure where the numbers would be?
I couldn't find any.
I'm still definitely confused the serial number breakdown and where this one falls isn't helping me ?
I looked at the gun afterward and not sure where the numbers would be?
I couldn't find any.
I'm still definitely confused the serial number breakdown and where this one falls isn't helping me ?
The sight/latch should be numbered on the bottom---open barrel, turn upside down----see number (or not----or see number differing from frame). The barrel number is a bit more cumbersome. It should be numbered inside the recess where the sight/latch lives----open barrel----raise sight/latch---see number (typically on the right side)----from the bottom. (These numbers are facing you when you hold the gun in firing position.) All these numbers should/will match----the frame number and each other on an original, unfooledaroundwith gun. You will hear all sorts of cockamamie reasons why numbers don't match----typically from folks who have guns with mismatched numbers. Believe them at your peril.
I don't know what you mean by serial number breakdown, but that ignorance aside, I shall press on----regardless.
1st Model SS's are numbered within the same series as the .38 SA 3rd Model----theoretically from 1 to 28107. There is an extensive (but incomplete) list of all the 1st Model SS numbers in N&J. 2nd Model SS's are numbered from 1 to 4617. That's the end of the serial number breakdown----if we're both talking about the same thing. Yes? No?
Ralph Tremaine
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OP
I think so Mr. Tremaine.
This serial # would definitely be too high for a Second Model S.S. ?
Also when I looked earlier today I did look in that area some and didn't see any numbers. I will look closely at where you stated tomorrow and update.
Thanks for taking the time to try and help me on this
This serial # would definitely be too high for a Second Model S.S. ?
Also when I looked earlier today I did look in that area some and didn't see any numbers. I will look closely at where you stated tomorrow and update.
Thanks for taking the time to try and help me on this
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Yes, the serial number (8569) is too high for a 2nd Model. A SS with that number is either a 1st or a 3rd----never mind that you don't need to know the number to distinguish between a 1st and a 3rd.
RT
And if your sight/latch and/or barrel are numbered different than the frame, you have a "frankengun". If your sight/latch and/or barrel is not numbered, they came from the Parts Department----as replacements---or additions.
RT
And if your sight/latch and/or barrel are numbered different than the frame, you have a "frankengun". If your sight/latch and/or barrel is not numbered, they came from the Parts Department----as replacements---or additions.
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wlamon3
US Veteran
This is a very interesting discussion to me and I am learning about the gun, the process and the history.
I might have missed a comment on this thread, but the pistol has extended hard rubber target stocks and that should mean that the serial number would be stamped on the front of the butt-frame. My understanding is that any gun leaving the factory with extended target or Regulation stocks would have the serial number stamped in the front. This and other comments make me believe you have a put-together pistol that seems not factory original.
Ralph, I have a few catalogs of the era, but not any at the transition years. What I can find is that both the First and Second Model SS were named the same. The "Single Shot Target Pistol" was listed as such in the 1900, 1903, and 1907 catalogs. The ".22 Single Shot Perfected New Target Pistol" was listed in the 1912 Catalog. After that, it was called "Perfected Target Pistol was listed in the 1919 and 1923 catalogs.
I am under the impression that the model and change identifications were done outside the factory well after the introductions of most early model guns. I notice that in the 1958 McHenry & Roper book Smith & Wesson Handguns, There was First, Second, and Third Model Single Shot pistols labeled as such. The 1953 Rywell book Smith & Wesson Story of the Revolver, also lists the SS pistols as 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Who came up with these IDs remains a mystery to me.
OP
This was a picture of the whole gun I'll be checking for the barrel sight numbers soon.
There is no question the serial number on the butt is scary. Similarly, there is no question SS's with the number on the butt have lettered as authentic.
I, like any of the rest of us, looked first at the whole gun------as much of it as we could see at the outset----and made some snap judgments. Pretty much in order, my snap judgments went like this:
It's a nice gun!
I'll bet the finish is original.
I'll bet the numbers match---frame and barrel at least. (I'd certainly prefer to have a matching sight/latch, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a knot if it doesn't.)
End of snap judgments.
Would I buy this gun? Absolutely---but there are those who will pay a large premium for it because they regard it as a "transitional" item---rather than just an evolutionary odd-ball----and I won't.
Ralph Tremaine
As to who came up with this 1st/2nd Model terminology, I suspect we (the collectors) are the guilty parties----much the same as we are guilty of all this "1st/2nd/3rd/4th change" business on certain of the hand ejector models. It could be worse----the hard core lunatic fringe Ruger collectors differentiate certain of the early single actions in accord with such earth shattering differences as the shape of the thumb piece on the ejector rod. I suspect all this came about as the result of a desperate search for excuses to buy more guns.
I, like any of the rest of us, looked first at the whole gun------as much of it as we could see at the outset----and made some snap judgments. Pretty much in order, my snap judgments went like this:
It's a nice gun!
I'll bet the finish is original.
I'll bet the numbers match---frame and barrel at least. (I'd certainly prefer to have a matching sight/latch, but I'm not going to get my knickers in a knot if it doesn't.)
End of snap judgments.
Would I buy this gun? Absolutely---but there are those who will pay a large premium for it because they regard it as a "transitional" item---rather than just an evolutionary odd-ball----and I won't.
Ralph Tremaine
As to who came up with this 1st/2nd Model terminology, I suspect we (the collectors) are the guilty parties----much the same as we are guilty of all this "1st/2nd/3rd/4th change" business on certain of the hand ejector models. It could be worse----the hard core lunatic fringe Ruger collectors differentiate certain of the early single actions in accord with such earth shattering differences as the shape of the thumb piece on the ejector rod. I suspect all this came about as the result of a desperate search for excuses to buy more guns.
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OP
I'm just trying to learn about this one and it does appear to be
"the lump of coal"......coal may be in my budget
I've learned a lot about these thanks to all the posters.
First thing I checked was grip frame
Luckily someone with better eyes than me could get the serial on the sight and barrel......They match each other but not the frame.
"the lump of coal"......coal may be in my budget
I've learned a lot about these thanks to all the posters.
First thing I checked was grip frame
Luckily someone with better eyes than me could get the serial on the sight and barrel......They match each other but not the frame.
