S&W perfected 1st model or 2nd model ????

[rct269]

One last question------------------------------

Are there slots/openings (cut) in the frame for the hand and the cylinder stop?

I ask because (as I noted earlier) this is a very low numbered "transitional" gun. (I suspect its very low number is pure happenstance---as I have a 1st Model (#23001) which is a stock, standard, plain vanilla gun, complete with recoil shields----and all of the revolver innards----all of which suggests these things were not put together in anything even remotely resembling serial number order.)

Ralph Tremaine

 

[crossv]

I'm a bit curious about the number of the barrel. I can't quite read the photo, but looks like a low number, but clearly the one line address. If we can see the profile of the barrel below the ejector, it might help also because I have some suspicion now of a 3rd model barrel.

cb

 

[weatherby]

 

[weatherby]

I'm a bit curious about the number of the barrel. I can't quite read the photo, but looks like a low number, but clearly the one line address. If we can see the profile of the barrel below the ejector, it might help also because I have some suspicion now of a 3rd model barrel.

cb

if it is read bottom to top it is 9231

 

[deadin]

I suspect all this came about as the result of a desperate search for excuses to buy more guns.

Ralph, That is brilliant! I had never thought of it quite that way....
(That may also explain the great plethora of half inch increments in barrel lengths. )

 

[rct269]

Well, that's a first for me! This is the only one of these "transitional" items I've seen with cuts for the hand and cylinder stop. This may be old news to a "real" collector of SS's like Terry Wagner, but it's new news to me.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

Ralph,
Another possible oddity.... I have an 8" 2nd Model SS that letters to being shipped 15 Feb 1910 to a C. L. Flannigan. Its rear sight windage adjustment is by screws from either side of the blade, while the gun under discussion has the two "clamping" screws on the rear of the sight.

Is this normal??
(Oh, and the number on the sight matches the barrel and frame number)

 

[rct269]

Ralph,
Another possible oddity.... I have an 8" 2nd Model SS that letters to being shipped 15 Feb 1910 to a C. L. Flannigan. Its rear sight windage adjustment is by screws from either side of the blade, while the gun under discussion has the two "clamping" screws on the rear of the sight.

Is this normal??
(Oh, and the number on the sight matches the barrel and frame number)

Normal?-------------------No, but perhaps explainable.

For openers, your sight is (at least sounds like) a 3rd Model sight----which bolts right on a 1st/2nd Model----and is a vastly superior sight (by virtue of the quick and precise windage adjustment). So what's a 3rd Model sight doing on a 2nd Model? I wasn't there, so I don't know---but here's what I believe---and why I believe it.

First, your 2nd Model shipped after the 3rd Model came into being----and I have long believed the factory updated (at least) in stock barrels----and now I believe they may have also updated in stock guns----or responded favorably to a special order (for your gun)----although I don't understand why they would have bothered to number the sight. It's worthy of note the updating of in stock barrels happened long after your gun was shipped, so I'm inclined to lean toward special order for your gun----especially since Jinks has told me they would do pretty much anything anybody would pay them to do at this point in time.

I believe they updated in stock barrels because I have one---and have seen others. Here's what I have been told about the updated barrels: A decision was made at a point in time to update 1st/2nd SS barrels remaining in stock by modifying them to also fit 3rd Models (mill the bottom flat---and shorten it a bit (.035-.040"). My barrel----1st Model, .38, 6", has been milled not just flat, but to exactly the same configuration as any/all 3rd Model barrels, fitted with the Patridge front blade common to later 3rd Models, and the 3rd Model rear sight. (This (and the others I've seen) have clearly come from the Parts Department (no numbers---and brand spanking new----except the bottoms were cold blued).

Make sense??

Ralph Tremaine

 

[deadin]

Make sense??

More than you might think.....
This gun is equipped with a Patridge front sight and a square notch rear. I have tracked a C.L. Flannigan that was a exhibition shooter from around that era and it would make sense that he would want something updated....

BTW, The bottom of the barrel of mine is still rounded.

 

[red9]

Ralph,

Not to hijack this hijacked thread, but a question regarding your comment on the updated 1st & 2nd model barrels. A 3rd model with a lettered 6" barrel just sold at auction for what I thought was a very low price (I was the bargain basement underbidder). I hope it went to someone here. How many short barreled 3rds are out there? Were they 6" 1st model barrels or shortened 3rd's?

Bob

 

[weatherby]

I may as well continue on with my ignorant questions on these and try to figure out the sight barrel combination.
It does seem a bit odd that they "happen" to be within 700 of the frame.
That being said....doesn't appear to me in my ignorance with the barrel markings to be a 1st model one.
With a serial number in the 9,000 range shouldn't be a second model one?
Not knowing how to read the serial number doesn't help as it could be in the 1,000 range read the other way ?
and with this type of rear sight doesn't seem right for a 3rd ?

Can anyone tell I'm still confused.....LOL

Another picture to hopefully help

 

[rct269]

I may as well continue on with my ignorant questions on these and try to figure out the sight barrel combination.
It does seem a bit odd that they "happen" to be within 700 of the frame.
That being said....doesn't appear to me in my ignorance with the barrel markings to be a 1st model one.
With a serial number in the 9,000 range shouldn't be a second model one?
and with this type of rear sight doesn't seem right for a 3rd ?

Can anyone tell I'm still confused.....LOL

Another picture to hopefully help

The bottom of your barrel appears to be radiused----as opposed to "flat"---hence a 1st/2nd barrel. Serial number says 1st Model. Barrel address says 2nd Model. Pick one. I pick 1st Model. So why isn't the barrel marking correct (Model of '91)? Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one. Why?? Now we're back where we started. My solution is: "Don't sweat the small stuff!"------it's hazardous to your health!!

We, as collectors, are happy campers when everything is perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Ralph Tremaine

And the rear sight on this gun is that of a 1st/2nd----not a 3rd.

But---------if you buy this----and if you shoot it, do yourself a favor and get a hold of a 3rd Model rear sight. It will bolt right on, and is vastly superior.

 

[weatherby]

It is Radiused

Thanks.....bit of a grin.... that apparently I was confused for a good reason

 

[rct269]

Ralph,

Not to hijack this hijacked thread, but a question regarding your comment on the updated 1st & 2nd model barrels. A 3rd model with a lettered 6" barrel just sold at auction for what I thought was a very low price (I was the bargain basement underbidder). I hope it went to someone here. How many short barreled 3rds are out there? Were they 6" 1st model barrels or shortened 3rd's?

Bob

How many short barreled 3rds are out there?----an excellent question! I don't have the first clue! 3rds were cataloged as 10" guns. Both 6 & 8" 3rds were made. I have a 6" 3rd. Bought it the mid-90's from the Bonhomme(??) auction folks in San Francisco. It's as new---allegedly from the factory collection---does not letter as such----was shipped to Wm. Reed & Co. in Boston. They were 6" 3rd Model barrels (made that way), not 1st's, not shortened 3rds. I have seen exactly three of them in 50 years of poking around. I have never seen a legitimate 8" 3rd.

As an aside, I need two guns to (essentially) complete my collection of target guns. They are an 8" 3rd Model SS, and a 6" 2nd Model SS. I expect to die without them. Perhaps I'll come across them after that-----or not.

Ralph Tremaine

I said the short 3rd barrels were made that way----not shortened. On second thought, that doesn't make good sense. There's no way in hell I'm going to pop for forging dies for a handful of short barrels. I'm going to cut down 10" barrel forgings, and get on with the program.

 

[crossv]

So it is not flat bottomed, so not a 3rd barrel. But the serial really does look to be 9231 stamped from bottom to top - so read from outside the barrel and looks like possibly overstamped to me. I am just going by memory but I thought the barrel was normally stamped going the other way. And 9231 is not really a number for a 2nd model barrel is it? Could be for a new low number 1st to 2nd transition, but strange if not matching frame and frame not stamped on front of grip...?

 

[rct269]

WHO'S ON FIRST?

So it is not flat bottomed, so not a 3rd barrel. But the serial really does look to be 9231 stamped from bottom to top - so read from outside the barrel and looks like possibly overstamped to me. I am just going by memory but I thought the barrel was normally stamped going the other way. And 9231 is not really a number for a 2nd model barrel is it? Could be for a new low number 1st to 2nd transition, but strange if not matching frame and frame not stamped on front of grip...?

I can make out the 9231 just fine----reading from bottom up. 4-5 SS's I just grabbed all have barrel numbers which read from the top down. I can't make much of anything sensible reading this one from the top down. 9231 is absolutely not a 2nd Model number. I know of only one 3rd Model with a radiused barrel (bottom)----and this ain't it!

That leaves this as a 1st Model barrel with a 2nd Model barrel address.

Under the heading of miscellaneous dic-doc proving absolutely nothing, neither the frame nor barrel number of this gun is in N&J.

Quittin' time!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[weatherby]

If it Looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, there's a good chance it's a duck...)

an odd one

 

[weatherby]

Because it isn't. Maybe the roll die was broken that day. Maybe someone made a boo-boo. They were not about to shut down the line and send everybody home for the rest of the day. I have a "Model of '91" target revolver---matching numbers----letters----all the good stuff----except!!! Except the barrel marking is "wrong"------single line like this one.

That I find very interesting.
What is the approximate serial of that gun?

 

[ol777gunnerz]

Here is a picture of my first model of 91 with the side adjustment screws, of which the screws are smaller & the sight blade is thinner, than the Perfected 3rd model sights on barrel at left.

 

[weatherby]

I'm still trying to learn these but think you have two third model sights pictured. Does that sight on your first model S.S. number correctly ?