S&W - Royal Air Force Issue

[Sergeant_Pilot]

Hello chaps,

I have a 6" barrel, S&W, R.A.F property marked (M&P?) revolver. Number on butt 699756, apparently the number 32120 is also present. Original bluing as far as I can tell, said to have been issued to an RAF pilot in WW2, he kept it after the war and it was in his possession until 2020/21 when it was discovered and deactivated to current EU spec to make it legal.

Wondering when it was manufactured and when it could have been issued within the RAF? Does this pre-date the Lend-Lease program? Is it a "Cash and Carry" era firearm?

 

[PeteC]

Welcome to the forum. According to the s/n, and what is published in the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" it dates to 1941-42. It would be nice to see better pics of the property marks, and any other proofs or stamps, then the real experts here can tell you more,

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel? I believe your example pre-dates Lend-Lease which didn't start until 1941. I also think if it doesn't have a US Government Property stamp on the topstrap, it pre-dates Lend-Lease. An expert will be along shortly to straighten this out.

 

[PeteC]

I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:


1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000

 

[Absalom]

I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:

1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000

Those two serial ranges from the SCSW are a bit imprecise; neither is quite correct.

We have enough data to place 699756 into 1940. This makes it a relatively early British Service model (production of those started after 670000 somewhere). Before Lend-Lease, these were acquired by way of the British Purchasing Commission in New York.

RAF markings did occur, but their authenticity is usually hard to ascertain. However, yours is supported by your knowledge of the gun's back story.

As far as the gun's use in British service is concerned, the S&W revolvers reportedly ended up at Weedon Ordnance Depot, whence they were distributed as needed. So that information is entirely out of our reach.

 

[glenwolde]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel?

I think the Brits use "calibre".

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I'm Americun.

 

[Truckman]

I'm Americun.

I'se a Texan but I'm fluent in either language......Ben

 

[handejector]

Your pic is reversed. That is the right side of the gun, but it appears as the left.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

RAF S&W

Thank you for the response, much apprieciated! Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940? Do we know if ammunition was purchased, or whether British made ammunition was used?

Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

Well, when the moratorium on "Factory Letters" is lifted in January, you can request one on that gun from the S&W Historical Foundation for $100. It will tell you how it was configured, to whom it shipped and the date it shipped. There is no way I know of after that to trace its movements. Perhaps someone else more familiar with the shipping process can elaborate on how the transaction process worked.


Your barrel is stamped .38 S&W CTG. That is the US cartridge. It is essentially the same as .38 Webley (.38/200) except for bullet weight and jacketing. Any of those cartridges will work in that handgun. The US made millions of them for the Commonwealth and I'm sure your cartridge manufacturers were churning them out as well.

 

[PeteC]

Doing a quick search, I found a thread that shows similar RAF marks (in post #5). That particular gun is serial # 700701, and also 6" barrel. The pilot's history is also in that thread:

.38S&W WWII RAF issue revolver

 

[Absalom]

How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940?

The BPC placed bulk orders with S&W, who put batches in boxes and shipped them to the BPC's warehouses at the Port of New York. Then the guns survived running the U-boat gauntlet in the belly of a freighter. They were accepted at RSAF Enfield and then stored at Weedon until distribution.

Maybe Peter or Alan have more detail on this or can correct me.

Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?

That's not really a "replacement", just a different bullet. The British .380 cartridge came off a .38 Webley round for which Webley had been building pocket revolvers since at least the 1890s; that .38 round was probably copied from the .38 S&W back in the mists of blackpowder time, because they are dimensionally identical, and the S&W existed first.

The Mk I had a 200gr conical lead bullet, prone to incidental deformation in the pouch. To avoid a possible Hague convention issue regarding "expanding bullets", the Mk IIz got a 178gr jacketed bullet. Necessity of war led to both being issued during the war. Either worked; accuracy issues didn't affect what was needed for military handgun use.

This was an issue only faced by nations still issuing revolvers; the autopistol nations used jacketed ammo anyways. The US used a jacketed bullet for the standard .38 Sp Victory round for the same reason.

 

[Absalom]

The existence of another stamped one in the thread linked by PeteC above, and actually two more mentioned by Ed within that thread (#17), all in the same serial vicinity, puts the authenticity of the gun and RAF stamping on really solid footing even apart from the back story.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

S&W RAF

This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

 

[Muley Gil]

This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

Welcome to the Forum.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

... so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

Welcome aboard from the hills of ol' Wyo.

Oh, don't get snared in that "logic" trap.

S&W doesn't work that way.

I've reviewed several 100-gun S&W orders. Few, if any, of the revolvers contained in those orders were consecutive.

Not only did S&W not assemble revolvers in serial number order, it doesn't ship in serial number order, either.

Neat revolver you have!

 

[Absalom]

….

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

That is indeed a logical conclusion.

The forum member who wrote that post is a respected long-term collector and expert on the S&W revolvers in that time period. The context with your gun and serial appears strong. Until you can get a definite ship date with a history letter, that is the best info you're likely to find.

PS: Bob above is generally correct if the serial were all you had.

But barrel length and RAF stamp and the existence of batch shipments strengthen possible links significantly.

 

[Mk VII]

You can also see the blob where they tack-welded the sideplate on.

 

[Absalom]

A random thought:

Roy has the records of numbers shipped to New York by S&W. If Enfield/Weedon receipt records are accessible to researchers, it would be interesting to try to figure out just how many of the British Service M&P's sent off by the BPC, unissued and still in their kraft boxes, ended up in Davy Jones' locker