S&W - Royal Air Force Issue

[Sergeant_Pilot]

Hello chaps,

I have a 6" barrel, S&W, R.A.F property marked (M&P?) revolver. Number on butt 699756, apparently the number 32120 is also present. Original bluing as far as I can tell, said to have been issued to an RAF pilot in WW2, he kept it after the war and it was in his possession until 2020/21 when it was discovered and deactivated to current EU spec to make it legal.

Wondering when it was manufactured and when it could have been issued within the RAF? Does this pre-date the Lend-Lease program? Is it a "Cash and Carry" era firearm?

 

[PeteC]

Welcome to the forum. According to the s/n, and what is published in the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" it dates to 1941-42. It would be nice to see better pics of the property marks, and any other proofs or stamps, then the real experts here can tell you more,

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel? I believe your example pre-dates Lend-Lease which didn't start until 1941. I also think if it doesn't have a US Government Property stamp on the topstrap, it pre-dates Lend-Lease. An expert will be along shortly to straighten this out.

 

[PeteC]

I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:


1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000

 

[Absalom]

I see the s/n date ranges overlap in the book. Interesting:

1915-1942, s/n 241704 - 700000
1940-1945, s/n 700000 - 1000000

Those two serial ranges from the SCSW are a bit imprecise; neither is quite correct.

We have enough data to place 699756 into 1940. This makes it a relatively early British Service model (production of those started after 670000 somewhere). Before Lend-Lease, these were acquired by way of the British Purchasing Commission in New York.

RAF markings did occur, but their authenticity is usually hard to ascertain. However, yours is supported by your knowledge of the gun's back story.

As far as the gun's use in British service is concerned, the S&W revolvers reportedly ended up at Weedon Ordnance Depot, whence they were distributed as needed. So that information is entirely out of our reach.

 

[glenwolde]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! What caliber is stamped on the barrel?

I think the Brits use "calibre".

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I'm Americun.

 

[Truckman]

I'm Americun.

I'se a Texan but I'm fluent in either language......Ben

 

[handejector]

Your pic is reversed. That is the right side of the gun, but it appears as the left.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

RAF S&W

Thank you for the response, much apprieciated! Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940? Do we know if ammunition was purchased, or whether British made ammunition was used?

Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Is there a way to track down a day, week or month of production within 1940? Or to trace it's movements, such it's sale to Britain?

Well, when the moratorium on "Factory Letters" is lifted in January, you can request one on that gun from the S&W Historical Foundation for $100. It will tell you how it was configured, to whom it shipped and the date it shipped. There is no way I know of after that to trace its movements. Perhaps someone else more familiar with the shipping process can elaborate on how the transaction process worked.


Your barrel is stamped .38 S&W CTG. That is the US cartridge. It is essentially the same as .38 Webley (.38/200) except for bullet weight and jacketing. Any of those cartridges will work in that handgun. The US made millions of them for the Commonwealth and I'm sure your cartridge manufacturers were churning them out as well.

 

[PeteC]

Doing a quick search, I found a thread that shows similar RAF marks (in post #5). That particular gun is serial # 700701, and also 6" barrel. The pilot's history is also in that thread:

.38S&W WWII RAF issue revolver

 

[Absalom]

How did this purchasing work and who transported bulk firearm purchases across the atlantic to Britain during 1940?

The BPC placed bulk orders with S&W, who put batches in boxes and shipped them to the BPC's warehouses at the Port of New York. Then the guns survived running the U-boat gauntlet in the belly of a freighter. They were accepted at RSAF Enfield and then stored at Weedon until distribution.

Maybe Peter or Alan have more detail on this or can correct me.

Was it intended to use the British made "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkII." round introduced in 1937? Replacing the British version of the S&W .38 round, namely the "Cartridge, S.A., Revolver Ball, 380 in, MkI .38-200."?

That's not really a "replacement", just a different bullet. The British .380 cartridge came off a .38 Webley round for which Webley had been building pocket revolvers since at least the 1890s; that .38 round was probably copied from the .38 S&W back in the mists of blackpowder time, because they are dimensionally identical, and the S&W existed first.

The Mk I had a 200gr conical lead bullet, prone to incidental deformation in the pouch. To avoid a possible Hague convention issue regarding "expanding bullets", the Mk IIz got a 178gr jacketed bullet. Necessity of war led to both being issued during the war. Either worked; accuracy issues didn't affect what was needed for military handgun use.

This was an issue only faced by nations still issuing revolvers; the autopistol nations used jacketed ammo anyways. The US used a jacketed bullet for the standard .38 Sp Victory round for the same reason.

 

[Absalom]

The existence of another stamped one in the thread linked by PeteC above, and actually two more mentioned by Ed within that thread (#17), all in the same serial vicinity, puts the authenticity of the gun and RAF stamping on really solid footing even apart from the back story.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

S&W RAF

This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

 

[Muley Gil]

This passage caught my eye.

"Very interesting history. This gun, ser. # 700701, and may have been in a group of revolvers with 6 inch barrels, that included ser. # 701178, (also marked RAF in same fashion as 700701) that were ready to ship in Jan. 1940, but for reasons unknown now, did not ship until Sept. 1941. Ser. # 704824 is also stamped RAF ( and with the Flight Officer's name on the grips) and was shipped in Jan. 1940. Ed."

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

Welcome to the Forum.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

... so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

Welcome aboard from the hills of ol' Wyo.

Oh, don't get snared in that "logic" trap.

S&W doesn't work that way.

I've reviewed several 100-gun S&W orders. Few, if any, of the revolvers contained in those orders were consecutive.

Not only did S&W not assemble revolvers in serial number order, it doesn't ship in serial number order, either.

Neat revolver you have!

 

[Absalom]

….

Mine is 699756, so must have been manufactured in January 1940 at the latest if the numbers were consecutively assigned?

That is indeed a logical conclusion.

The forum member who wrote that post is a respected long-term collector and expert on the S&W revolvers in that time period. The context with your gun and serial appears strong. Until you can get a definite ship date with a history letter, that is the best info you're likely to find.

PS: Bob above is generally correct if the serial were all you had.

But barrel length and RAF stamp and the existence of batch shipments strengthen possible links significantly.

 

[Mk VII]

You can also see the blob where they tack-welded the sideplate on.

 

[Absalom]

A random thought:

Roy has the records of numbers shipped to New York by S&W. If Enfield/Weedon receipt records are accessible to researchers, it would be interesting to try to figure out just how many of the British Service M&P's sent off by the BPC, unissued and still in their kraft boxes, ended up in Davy Jones' locker

 

[AlanDavid]

Interesting topic. Coincidentally, I have got a day off work today and was going to do some collation of notes on these pistols.
Below,is a small list of serial numbers of similar pistols most of which are from this forum.

700451 - noted from Weller & Dufty UK auction catalogue from late 1970's
699824
700701
701178
704824
699756

All these pistols have a few things in common.
First, the crude RAF and broad arrow, which is struck on the right hand side of the frame. Traditionally, British ordnance markings are invariably placed on the L/H side of the frame.
Second,more importantly none of these revolvers as far as the photos show have the normal BPC Enfield inspection marks and broad arrow on the L/H side of the frame near the hammer. However, known BPC guns without RAF markings that do not have Enfield markings but letter to the BPC have been observed, so there are exceptions.
Third, all of these examples have 6"barrels.
Finally, these pistols are in a narrow band of serial numbers of 4,000 or so.
As Absalom says although the RAF marking would be easy to fake all these guns are genuinely marked.

As far as the date of these serial numbers and 6"barrels are concerned we can rule out the 1000 guns with 6" barrels that were part of the 'off the shelf purchase' of 2,150 pistols from S&W on 12th June 1940.(See Jinks Page 139). These serial numbers ran from about 670XXX to about 682XXX. For completeness other 6"barrel guns in this shipment of 2,150 were 150 Target guns and 145 nickel guns - clearly not applicable here.

So the next most likely batch of guns these pistols were part of would be the 20,000 BPC order of 20th June 1940, which had 6" barrels. With relation to 700701 which was ready to ship in January 1940 the serial number seems to high for that to be the case. If it was in fact shipped in September 1941 this seems very late not only for the serial number, nobody was ordering 6" barreled guns by then, everything was 5" barrels. The final shipments to the BPC being in December 1941.

What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, pageing ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...

Regards

AlanD

 

[Mk VII]

The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.

 

[ordnanceguy]

What we really need is to see a S&W letters on one of these puppies. Perhaps there is one hidden in amongst the Victory Data Base thread.

Failing that, paging ordnanceguy - paging ordnanceguy - please report to your keyboard...

Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.

I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
Charlie

 

[AlanDavid]

The S.S. Silvercedar was carrying '1000 S&W .38 Revolvers in 10 c/s' when she was torpedoed and sunk on 17th October 1941 by U-553 in the North Atlantic en route from New York and Sydney, C.B. for Liverpool in convoy SC-48.
I noted several (many) similar entries in the loss records when I was doing research for the Thompson book, but as I wasn't focussed on revolvers at the time I only noted some in passing. It would be possible to arrive at a figure for losses on the British Purchasing Commission's account. But the volume of manifests during the worst period of losses is formidable.

That's interesting. I wonder if a laborious trudge through the manifests would give a true figure of losses similar to that which you found in your extensive reach for the Thompson SMG book. If I remember this was a tad under 5% of TSMG shipped to the UK , lost at sea?

Regards

AlanD

 

[AlanDavid]

Reporting in, sir.

The Victory Model Database shows 9 R.A.F. marked examples in this same relatively tight range, including those posted by Alan above. All are in the same configuration. None of them are recorded as having a factory letter.

However, it is my expectation that all of these R.A.F. marked revolvers would letter as having shipped to the British Purchasing Commission. S&W factory records would have no further information as to downstream users such as the R.A.F. A typical factory letter for one of the 6 inch, blued, .38 S&W revolvers shipped to the B.P.C. is shown below.



The original poster above asked about the proper ammunition issued during WW2 for these and like revolvers. It would have been the .380 Mark IIz packed in 12 round paper cartons as shown in the image below.

I hope that additional information is helpful.

Regards,
Charlie

Thanks Charlie, that letter shows a serial number not too far of the group of six above, so we have some idea of the ship date. Over the next two weeks I will post the highest and lowest serial number in the group above on the Ask Roy for a Ship Date section and see what dates we get. Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates?

Regards

Alan

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

RAF S&W

Excellent thread chaps! I'm really looking forward to finding out more.

Did S&W supply cleaning rods with these exported revolvers? I'm not sure which cleaning rod would be correct to display with the RAF 25 Pattern holster?

Apparently, these rods were supplied for the Victory model and are too long for the 37 Pattern holster's internal cleaning rod pocket. The appear in typical British packaging, so they must have been re-packaged for longer term storage during the 1940's? (I don't think they're British made?)

 

[Llance]

Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.

 

[Sergeant_Pilot]

Sergeant_Pilot: What action was necessary to make this revolver legal per current EU spec. Seems a shame and quite ugly to do this to a historical piece.

It'll make the Americans cry but here's the basic low-down as I understand it.

*Barrel cut open, all the way through to the chamber with a hardened steel rod welded in.
*Cylinder walls cut open and cylinders blocked.
*Mechanism between trigger and hammer destroyed.
*Firing pin and hole ground away.
*All major components welded/pinned together to prevent disassembly.
*Major components marked with the deactivation proof house stamp.

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.

 

[Truckman]

Luckily, this one was done very cleanly. Some deacts are absolutely butchered.

They are all disgusting......Ben

 

[ordnanceguy]

Charlie if the other 3 RAF guns on your data base not in the group of six above have a serial number higher or lower than those above perhaps you could let me know, and I can use that serial number/s when I post to get a better idea of the time/spread between shipping dates? Regards, Alan

Hi Alan:

Of the R.A.F. marked guns in the Database the low number is 699113 and the high number is 704824. It is a pretty narrow range.

Charlie