Sad story - M&P Model of 1905

[jmace57]

I won't go into too many specifics for obvious reasons, but I bought a gun from a guy on another forum. He is into another brand other than S&W. He had a M&P Model of 1905 for sale and I bought it based on some pictures he sent.

It arrived today. It is perhaps the nicest one I have ever seen in person. Just the beginnings of a drag line and the tiniest bit of wear on the muzzle. Looks and feel almost new. Grips look new.

As I flipped it over, my mouth dropped as I saw where the serial number had been removed from the butt. It looks like someone used a wire wheel and then put blue over it. As I looked closer, it had also been carefully removed from the back of the cylinder and covered with a dab of blue. The serial number is on the barrel, back of the ejector star, back of the yoke, and even in easily legible pencil on the back of the right grip.

The seller immediately agreed to take it back. I said I was surprised his FFL had shipped it...and now wonder if MINE will ship it back.

What a disappointment.

 

[glowe]

That is where the question - Do all the serial numbers match? - would have come in handy. Hope you can get it back to the seller.

I have to ask the question how did you receive it from your FFL? If there is no serial number to be found on the butt of the revolver, why did your FFL accept it in the first place? You do not take the serial number from a piece of paper, but rather take it directly off the firearm. He should have returned it immediately.

 

[jmace57]

Yes - all of the other serial number matched. The seller had his FFL send to me under my C&R FFL. I will have to use a Class 1 to send it back.
(I guess)

 

[Watchdog]

The seller had his FFL send to me under my C&R FFL.

This gun should never have made it past his FFL. Period.

 

[jmace57]

I agree with you...and the seller agrees too. Now, how the heck to I put it in MY bound book? And will MY FFL ship it? That's what I have to figure out next week.

 

[chud333]

Wow !!
Good Luck on getting this straightened out to
your satisfaction sir.
That's scary right there.
1. That the FFL shipped it.
2. That the seller neglected to mention this.
3. Who has been shot with it in the past or
what bank job was it carried at.


Chuck

 

[Watchdog]

I agree with you...and the seller agrees too. Now, how the heck to I put it in MY bound book? And will MY FFL ship it? That's what I have to figure out next week.

I'm not being smart alecky here, okay? I would not want to have this problem.

The only bright light I see here is that the gun at least has the original serial number on it in other locations. You're sort of the innocent party here...or victim, whichever you want to look at it. If you contact the BATFE about it, they'll probably take the gun, but if you have it documented as being received with a serial number removed, at least that'd put the spotlight on the shipping FFL, which is where it should be, anyway. Don't listen to me, though...there's bound to be someone on this forum who knows how to handle this.

I'm curious...what state did it come from?

I wish you luck.

 

[jmace57]

Florida. To be honest, I am taking this a lot more more seriously than just an inconvenience.

 

[jimmyj]

If the FFLs are not familiar with older firearms, plus the revolver has a serial number anywhere on it, perhaps they thought it was legal ?
Very few FFL holders process the knowledge of firearms that is contained on this forum.

 

[Art Doc]

I often see people freaking out on forums over guns with altered serials.

"OMG! I'm going to prison!"

Wrong. The only thing that happens when you wind up with such a gun is that it must be surrendered. I've known a couple of guys who wound up with stolen guns and all that happened was the cops took the guns.

In your book note N/A (not available) under serial and write "Returned as stolen property."

 

[Peak53]

Am I the only one thinking that the gun should be turned in to the BATFE? It should not be in circulation and it may be evidence in a crime. The shipping FFL will be on the hook with the feds and owes you the price of the gun to boot, through small claims court if it comes to it.

 

[g8rb8]

I often see people freaking out on forums over guns with altered serials.

"OMG! I'm going to prison!"

Wrong. The only thing that happens when you wind up with such a gun is that it must be surrendered. I've known a couple of guys who wound up with stolen guns and all that happened was the cops took the guns.

In your book note N/A (not available) under serial and write "Returned as stolen property."

Am I the only one thinking that the gun should be turned in to the BATFE? It should not be in circulation and it may be evidence in a crime. The shipping FFL will be on the hook with the feds and owes you the price of the gun to boot, through small claims court if it comes to it.

Like Peak53 I am guessing, in the end, this gun will most likely be turned over by jmace57 to proper authorities.

I appreciate jmace57 being brave enough to bring this up and remind all of us to be careful.

In an ideal world I think Saxon Pig (probably) offers reasonable advice that a logical reasonable person would offer and/or follow, but ......

"U.S.C. 922 (k) - It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

Penalty - 5 years (§ 924(a)(1)(B))

When you bought it and received it you did so not "KNOWINGLY", however you now "KNOW" so how do you justify transport or shipping it at this point? What is truly the legally correct thing to do at this point? I would check out my options until I was sure I understood them. I would document everything as best I could and save the documents and/or copies of them (communications, shipping information, receipts, etc.). My bet is, in the end, you'll end up turning the gun over to the police or surrendering it to some other appropriate agency? Just make sure you document everything.

 

[bigwagon]

Seems like a call to the BATFE is in order. I'm going out on a limb and guessing this isn't the first time this has ever happened.

 

[retiredbadge8091]

I would recommend you contact your lawyer and then your local police agency. In my state it is a second degree felony to knowingly possess a firearm with an altered serial number. Your local police will in all likelihood turn the case over to ATF. I also believe that this is the beauty of paying with a credit card, generally with something like this they will back out the charges and you won't be left holding the (empty money) bag.

 

[jmace57]

Good recommendations retiredbadge and observations g8rb8. It may well be what I do. If I were MY FFL...I wouldn't put it on my books. No, I didn't use a credit card, so I am probably going to be on the hook. The FFL is out of state, so pursuing a small claim may be out of play. I wonder if they'd let me strip the gun to at least recover a portion of the cost...not likely. It will likely just be an expensive lesson for me...and maybe a lot more for the FFL.

 

[glowe]

Just a hypothetical question - Since it has been suggested on other Forums and other Threads here, can the number could be rs-stamped on the butt as an option. Obviously, if it is a stolen gun on record, it has to go to the proper law enforcement agency, but that also will require you to disclose the FFL trail and the seller's identities, implicating 3 people in a felony.

Is this a common sense don't ask don't tell approach. The big problem is can anyone determine if the gun is stolen or not?

 

[Art Doc]

g8rb8- Yeah...yeah...yeah...EVERYTHING is illegal. The average person can't go 15 minutes without violating a law somehow. But I very SERIOUSLY doubt that anyone would be prosecuted for returning a stolen gun to the source for refund. No criminal intent.

About 35 years ago I bought a rifle from a gun shop. Owner called me a few days later. Oops...it's stolen and you need to bring it back. Did I violate federal law when I knowingly returned it to the dealer? Apparently I did. But hey, that's what the cops said to do. They told the dealer to call me and have me bring it back.

That revolver will be destroyed by cops. No way to ID owner. If seller was willing to make a refund I send it back to him. If I was stuck with it I would strip all the parts and trash the frame. I guess that makes me a criminal.

 

[DWalt]

"...can the number could be re-stamped on the butt as an option."

Legally, BATFE could reassign a new SN to it and make it legal - maybe. But it's not a simple process, and likely not worth the hassle. There was a story about this concerning one of Clyde Barrow's guns with a SN removed. BATFE eventually approved a new SN so it could be sold at auction, but it was a long slow job to get it done. In that case, it was worth the effort due to the gun's historic value.

 

[glowe]

. . . Legally, BATFE could reassign a new SN to it and make it legal - maybe. But it's not a simple process . . .

. . . but you are bringing it back to the letter of the law again, but not necessarily the intent of the law. Is there a way to call in a serial number to determine if it is stolen, lost, etc.? Let's say I was considering buying a gun and wanted to make sure it was not stolen, is there no way to find out with the serial number, model, make, etc.?

If that could happen, and it is not on the stolen list, the serial number could be re-stamped. If so, wouldn't the gun would become "legal" again? Seems to me, it is in the books, properly transferred, properly serial numbered, just as the law requires.

 

[Absalom]

There are questionable cases where a lot of people get way too worried about the possible legal consequences. Partially obscured butt serials due to lanyard installation, for example, are not worth worrying about in my opinion.

But this is NOT a questionable case. Federal law has been violated, the gun is illegal as it is, and the important part is that your involvement has already been documented elsewhere, out of your control, through the FFL transfer. So this isn't breaking the law like speeding, where if you get away with it you've gotten away with it. This could come back to bite you years down the road, from both ends, either someone tracking the gun through the seller to you if the gun stayed with you, even if you parted it out, or, if it goes back to the seller, any future misadventures the gun might be involved in.

The call to the BATFE or law enforcement is really a no-brainer. Is it worth it to you, for the sake of a few hundred dollars, to have that potential worry for the rest of your life? Even if you can't recover it, I'd write off the money just to get that out of my life. And if the gun and the serial can somehow be salvaged, BATFE are the ones you'd need to talk to anyway.