SAFETY LEVER PROBLEMS

[Squirrel Master]

Hello. I am going to try and explain this as best as I can. My wife's 15-22 was purchased new, and has less than 500 round through it. I have never removed the trigger group, or safety lever switch for any reason.

Now, if the rifle is on safe, I can pull the charging handle back, let it forward with it's own force as if loading a round, and switch the safety lever from fire to safe with no problems or "extra force". "Click click, click click", smooth motions, no problems.

However, if the lever is set to fire, and I pull back the charging handle, let it forward, and try to switch back & forth to safe & fire, the initial move down to safe is not smooth, and requires force. Similar on one of hand guns, because it acts as a de-cocker when done in this sequence.

On the rifle however, at this point, once you "BRUTE FORCE" it to safe, the charging handle now takes more force to pull back. So much more force, it seems almost as if it is stuck, or being held by something. Perhaps, something in it's path?

I don't know, but I would like to say it was doing this when I first purchased it. Has anyone else had this problem? Do you guys think I should Smith & Wesson, and send back in? Any and all help or input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[Jyezahn]

Page 12 of your owner's manual:

"NOTE: When handling the M&P 15-22; If
the safety selector does not easily rotate to
the "SAFE" position, DO NOT attempt to
force it into "SAFE". While keeping the
muzzle pointed in a safe direction, remove
the magazine and lock your bolt open as
instructed here and then rotate the safety
selector to "SAFE" before proceeding."

Also note that the hammer must be cocked in order to move from "Fire" to "Safe". I suggest placing the rifle in the configuration you described where the lever will not move, then pull the takedown pins and see what the disposition of your hammer is. (cocked or not)

 

[Squirrel Master]

Page 12 of your owner's manual:

"NOTE: When handling the M&P 15-22; If
the safety selector does not easily rotate to
the "SAFE" position, DO NOT attempt to
force it into "SAFE". While keeping the
muzzle pointed in a safe direction, remove
the magazine and lock your bolt open as
instructed here and then rotate the safety
selector to "SAFE" before proceeding."

Also note that the hammer must be cocked in order to move from "Fire" to "Safe". I suggest placing the rifle in the configuration you described where the lever will not move, then pull the takedown pins and see what the disposition of your hammer is. (cocked or not)

Thanks Jyezhan. I read the manual a few times front to back, and totally forgot about this. While reading the first few words, my old mind starting working somewhat, and realized I had read this info somewhere before. Thanks for the help, and please excuse my brain ripple...

 

[Jyezahn]

Eh, it happens!

 

[Squirrel Master]

Ok, so this is the deal, when the hammer is cocked back, the safety engages fine on or off. When the hammer is up in the non cocked position, it's like the safety lever is rubbing against something. It looks to be a part of the trigger group, and not the hammer itself.

Again, if the hammer is laid back in the cocked position, everything is smooth sailing. After you pull the trigger, and the hammer raises back up, the charging handle has a stiffness to pulling it back, on top of the safety lever not wanting to be moved. I can't figure it out...

 

[Jyezahn]

Yes, the safety is NOT supposed to be able to be engaged with the hammer in the up (fired) position. This is the way it's supposed to be. If you keep the lever on "Fire", then charge the handle (do not hold the trigger), then you can flip to "Safe". If the slide is abnormally stiff, add a bit of lubrication to the face of the hammer. If this is still an issue, you should check your bolt carrier rails for straightness.

 

[Squirrel Master]

Also, forgot to mention. If it's in this "error mode" and the safety is on, there is no play in the trigger. It doesn't budge at all. Again, I have never removed the trigger housing but it just seems something isn't lining up correctly.

 

[Jyezahn]

Separate your two halves, look into the trigger well, with hammer uncocked, manipulate the trigger, watch, manipulate the safety (without forcing it!). Push the hammer down (cocked) and do the same while watching both. Look for anything abnormal such as trigger springs being moved in odd directions, etc.

 

[Shooterjgs]

Just a question... you didn't remove or change the grip did you... that'll cause the safety to bind up a little if not done right...

 

[Squirrel Master]

Just a question... you didn't remove or change the grip did you... that'll cause the safety to bind up a little if not done right...

Hadn't added or changed the grip yet.

 

[Squirrel Master]

Separate your two halves, look into the trigger well, with hammer uncocked, manipulate the trigger, watch, manipulate the safety (without forcing it!). Push the hammer down (cocked) and do the same while watching both. Look for anything abnormal such as trigger springs being moved in odd directions, etc.

I believe you are on to something my friend. It looks as if the hammer spring is moving or rotating weird while favoring a side it wants to pull to. When doing so, the weak side is rising higher and causing more problems because it's not sitting or seated correctly. Looks to be a simple fix, so I will leave it alone for now. I will keep the thread posted on how this plays out. Thanks for all of the input guys! I truly appreciate the knowledge. Kind Regards.

 

[Squirrel Master]

The safety lever is designed such that it can only be selected in the safe position when the hammer is cocked. You should not be able to place the lever in the safe position with a dropped (uncocked) hammer. Definitely don't try to force it.

the reason the charging handle seems stiff is because you are cocking the hammer as you pull the charging handle. If the hammer is already cocked, then the charging handle has less resistance. I think this is maybe what you are experiencing.

Not sure how many times you are pulling the trigger, but you really should try to avoid dry firing if possible. If you need to drop the hammer, it's probably best to separate your upper and lower and do a controlled hammer drop with your thumb over the hammer while you pull the trigger. You shouldn't allow the hammer to slam against the poly receiver uncontrolled.

I have never dry fired the rifle. Thanks for the reminder, but I always ease the hammer forward while pulling the trigger. Great info all around, but I think I have spotted the problem with the hammer spring. Appreciate the knowledge!!!

 

[SimpleWeaponSolutions]

Go through this thread. It sounds like you may also have something else going on with the hammer.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-15-22/310970-my-trigger-acting-up.html

 

[Brett248Vista]

AR15's are meant to be "cocked" safe of not. When the rifle is uncocked (hammer is up) the tail end of the trigger rises up so the safety can not be rotated. Forcibly rotating the safety selector when the hammer is uncocked will DAMAGE the safety selector.

 

[Squirrel Master]

Go through this thread. It sounds like you may also have something else going on with the hammer.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-15-22/310970-my-trigger-acting-up.html

Thanks. Looking, I can see my hammer pin is not even on both sides. I'm going to pick up or order a CMC drop in trigger, and some anti walk pins tomorrow. Had I looked earlier, I could have noticed the pin's position, and searched the forum for pin issues. Instead, being simple minded, I searched for safety issues, and found nothing. Not fully understanding that this was only part of the problem. Thanks for all of your help and patience. I have to pay more attention to detail. I know some of the newbie questions get old, and aggravating, but if it means anything to you guys, it irritates me even more to post questions, and the answer is already on the forum.

 

[Rundover]

When the hammer is cocked the trigger is engaged in the sear and the trigger is rotated on the trigger pin as far forward as possible. This gives plenty of clearance for the safety lever to rotate and clear the trigger.
When the hammer is down the trigger is under the hammer and not rotated enough forward to properly clear the rotation of the safety lever.
You can see this by taking a empty 15-22 with the hammer down and slowly pull the charging handle. If you look closely you will see the trigger rotate forward about 1/8" when fully cocked and the sear engages.
Normal.

 

[FLSTFI]

The safety lever is designed such that it can only be selected in the safe position when the hammer is cocked. You should not be able to place the lever in the safe position with a dropped (uncocked) hammer. Definitely don't try to force it.

the reason the charging handle seems stiff is because you are cocking the hammer as you pull the charging handle. If the hammer is already cocked, then the charging handle has less resistance. I think this is maybe what you are experiencing.

Not sure how many times you are pulling the trigger, but you really should try to avoid dry firing if possible. If you need to drop the hammer, it's probably best to separate your upper and lower and do a controlled hammer drop with your thumb over the hammer while you pull the trigger. You shouldn't allow the hammer to slam against the poly receiver uncontrolled.

That explains problems I was having. I would have a round that would not go off. My first reaction is always to wait 10 seconds, switch the safety on and then try and clear the malfunction. I could not get the safety to move freely. Now that I understand the cause I feel a lot better, but that seems like a poor design that could lead to bad safety procedures. I always put the safety on when I am not in the immediate act of shooting. This goes directly against that.

 

[Majorlk]

That explains problems I was having. I would have a round that would not go off. My first reaction is always to wait 10 seconds, switch the safety on and then try and clear the malfunction. I could not get the safety to move freely. Now that I understand the cause I feel a lot better, but that seems like a poor design that could lead to bad safety procedures. I always put the safety on when I am not in the immediate act of shooting. This goes directly against that.

Every semi-auto rifle, that I have encountered, with this style of FCG requires the action to be cocked before the safety can be engaged, be it an AR, M1, M1A, M14, Mini14 ... It's the way the FCG is designed to operate.

It's no big deal ... Cock the action and engage the safety. I don't understand the problem.

 

[Squirrel Master]

Problem should be solved this evening. Just got off of the phone with Robbie Wheaton's wife of Wheaton Arms. My wife will be picking up the CMC (flat) trigger for me this evening. Going to go ahead and get some good pins while I'm at it.

I know this is a good trigger, and commonly used on the 15-22, but is there another one out there that I should consider for my new M-4? I guess what I am asking is, not concerning a few more bucks, should I look for a better trigger for the big brother? Or, just tell the wife to go ahead and grab two, and get the couch ready for tonight's sleep?

 

[telero]

First 3 steps in to clearing your rifle (at least in Appleseed):
1) Mag out
2) Bolt back
3) Safety on

Why this order?
1) Removes the ammunition feeding device. If you were to pull the bolt back first without removing the ammo, you might inadvertently chamber a new round. From the anecdotal evidence I've read, a lot of (particularly new) shooters rack the bolt to clear out a round from the chamber, but sometimes they don't lock the bolt back or it drops forward accidentally. Then they forget that there was still a mag in but assume it was unloaded. Huge chance for a negligent discharge in that situation.
2) Extracts any remaining round in the firearm. As long as the magazine is out and you see the last round come out, you can be reasonably certain that the firearm is unloaded.
3) Sometimes you can't put the safety on. Like stated, usually the hammer has to be cocked before you can apply the safety. If you don't have a last round bolt hold open and you dry fired the last shot, or if you had a failure to fire you'd need to rack the bolt first. But before that you'd want to clear your ammunition feeding device.

That's why Appleseed teaches it in that order. To be absolutely certain you're clear you'd also want to inspect the chamber visually, with your finger, and insert a chamber flag. The chamber flag is probably good enough.

Then as long as you follow the other safety rules you should be set. Always keep the muzzle in a safe direction, keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire, etc.