Savage M11 .223 and developing a load for it.

[AlHunt]

We only have a 2 firing points that are 200 yards. I am happy with the load for the most part at 100 yards. Will get around to shooting 200 yards at some point. I doubt I will ever get serious enough to doing at the accuracy fine points to get where some are.

It would definitely be interesting to see what that load opens up to at twice the yardage. It's a clover leaf, so it's certainly going to spread some.

 

[AJ]

"The Reloading Podcast" a few years back had a long range guy as co-host and did a long on again / off again series of episodes about 1000 yd shooting. It's interesting the extremes these guys go to, making sure each and every round is precisely the same. Measuring the water capacity of each case but making sure the meniscus is exactly the same case to case for example.

Not for me, but interesting. I recently has a '93 Mauser action barreled back to 6.5 Swede and I look forward to seeing what I can do ... within reason.

The 6.5X55 Swedish can shoot and shoot well. This is from a Swedish CG-63 rifle that I own. It is a target rifle made for civilian use out of the Swedish M1896 rifles. The action on this particular rifle is dated 1902. The same gentleman that loads my .223 rounds loads these for me. This rifle cannot be scoped. I can not get the sights to go lower as the swedes have the rifles set up to start at 300 meters.

 

[LVSteve]

I can not get the sights to go lower as the swedes have the rifles set up to start at 300 meters.

For me, that's the proper range to sight in a full house military cartridge.

 

[DWalt]

Long ago I developed the most consistent load for my .223 Savage 112V. Never had the need to change it. 52 grain Remington flat base bullets, 21.5gr IMR 4198, Remington small rifle bench rest primers, Israeli TZZ military brass, trimmed to consistent minimum length. You may need to fiddle with COAL to get best grouping. Normally I neck size cases only, no weight matching of cases or bullets. Five ten-shot groups at 100 yards produce very close to 14mm ES (c-to-c) average, normally one hole groups.

It is a waste of time and components to judge grouping performance by using groups of fewer than ten shots. Do not economize by firing less than five groups or groups of less than ten shots.

 

[AJ]

It is a waste of time and components to judge grouping performance by using groups of fewer than ten shots.

I guess the Marine Corps has it wrong.......we were taught to use three shot groups to make adjustments.

Ten shot groups are nice as you can see from my target in Post #1. But three shot groups do work.

 

[DWalt]

I guess the Marine Corps has it wrong.......we were taught to use three shot groups to make adjustments.

Ten shot groups are nice as you can see from my target in Post #1. But three shot groups do work.

Using three or five shots is fine for zeroing sights. But that tells you nothing about grouping performance or consistency of the gun and ammunition combination. BTW, the Navy small arms ammunition acceptance criteria is based on the average ES of five ten-shot groups. If you care nothing about performance consistency, use whatever group size you believe is best.

 

[AJ]

Using three or five shots is fine for zeroing sights. But that tells you nothing about grouping performance or consistency. BTW, the Navy small arms ammunition acceptance criteria is based on the average ES of five ten-shot groups. If you care nothing about performance consistency, use whatever group size you believe is best.

Let us go to the range.........

 

[AJ]

For me, that's the proper range to sight in a full house military cartridge.

Our range only has a 2 firing points at 200 yards. The rest are at 100 yards. I would be comfortable at 200, 300, & 500 yards if I could get a range that had those yardages. There is a range about 30 miles from me with those ranges. The range I use is six miles from the house. Just to lazy to drive the 30 miles.

 

[DWalt]

The "Battle Sight" setting for a military rifle depends somewhat on the rifle and the Army. The idea is to have a fixed minimum zero sight setting at a reasonable expected maximum engagement distance (which might or might not be 300 meters) that will result in a higher probability that the average common infantryman (not a sniper or designated marksman) will make a hit somewhere on the opposing soldier's body at that distance OR at any closer distance. A bullet through the heart is unnecessary, just a hit anywhere on the opposing soldier's body will be satisfactory. Somewhat like the "Point Blank" sight setting concept used for hunting. Sight in your deer rifle to a 150 yards zero, and then you will have a pretty good chance of hitting a deer in the chest area if the deer is anywhere between zero and 200 yards distant (made-up numbers). Typical combat engagement distances are normally, but not always, less than 300 meters. Greater engagement distances do not often result in major casualties to the enemy from small arms fire as average soldiers are not expert marksmen.

 

[AlHunt]

The 6.5X55 Swedish can shoot and shoot well. This is from a Swedish CG-63 rifle that I own. It is a target rifle made for civilian use out of the Swedish M1896 rifles. The action on this particular rifle is dated 1902. The same gentleman that loads my .223 rounds loads these for me. This rifle cannot be scoped. I can not get the sights to go lower as the swedes have the rifles set up to start at 300 meters.

I like it. This action had the bolt handle turned down and scope mounts when I got it. I need to get a stock and scope and try to shoot it some this summer. Going to start off with a couple boxes of factory ammo and see where it goes from there.

 

[AJ]

The "Battle Sight" setting for a military rifle depends somewhat on the rifle and the Army. The idea is to have a fixed minimum zero sight setting at a reasonable expected maximum engagement distance (which might or might not be 300 meters) that will result in a higher probability that the average common infantryman (not a sniper or designated marksman) will make a hit somewhere on the opposing soldier's body at that distance OR at any closer distance. A bullet through the heart is unnecessary, just a hit anywhere on the opposing soldier's body will be satisfactory. Somewhat like the "Point Blank" sight setting concept used for hunting. Sight in your deer rifle to a 150 yards zero, and then you will have a pretty good chance of hitting a deer in the chest area if the deer is anywhere between zero and 200 yards distant (made-up numbers). Typical combat engagement distances are normally, but not always, less than 300 meters. Greater engagement distances do not often result in major casualties to the enemy from small arms fire as average soldiers are not expert marksmen.

We were not taught "Battle Zero" that I remember. We zeroed the sights manually. Then started at 200 yards on a target that was 6X6 with a 12 inch bullseye. We called accuracy several things, but the one that sticks most is "Minute of Chest". Don't know what the Army qualified at, but for the Jarheads it was 200, 300, & 500 yards. I do have some Army "Battle Zero" targets that are for their 1000 inch line zeroing, but never saw that in the Corps. Those targets simulate a 300 yard sight picture (1000 inch = 27 yards). I use their targets at 50 yards for small bore at 50 yards which gives me a 600 yard sight picture with iron sights on my rifles.

 

[hardluk1]

AJ Sorry about there being no link .Thats a s&w forum thang ! Check your mail .

 

[Krogen]

Good grief, 3-inch groups at ONE THOUSAND YARDS….?!

Show me pictures of this!

It's believable! The .223 with heavy bullets can be impressive. Granted 1000 yds is a lot tougher than 500, but I shoot a Savage FT/R with a Wilson barrel that will do 1.8" at 500 yards. The load is a Berger 80.5 gr Fullbore bullet over a max charge of Varget. The bullets are seated almost touching the lands. Freebore is 0.169" to accommodate long heavy bullets. Optic is a Nightforce Benchrest 12-42x56mm. (gotta be able to see the target!)

The target pic is from a day last spring. Note the velocity shown is at 500 yds. Muzzle velocity is around 2850 fps.

 

[AJ]

That is near World's Record Performance. New 1,000 Yard World Record Set With Berger Bullets | Berger Bullets

It's believable! The .223 with heavy bullets can be impressive. Granted 1000 yds is a lot tougher than 500, but I shoot a Savage FT/R with a Wilson barrel that will do 1.8" at 500 yards. The load is a Berger 80.5 gr Fullbore bullet over a max charge of Varget. The bullets are seated almost touching the lands. Freebore is 0.169" to accommodate long heavy bullets. Optic is a Nightforce Benchrest 12-42x56mm. (gotta be able to see the target!)

The target pic is from a day last spring. Note the velocity shown is at 500 yds. Muzzle velocity is around 2850 fps.

Yes, it is possible to shoot a three inch or less group at 1000 yards. See the link in my previous post. With the right equipment, and ammo and shooter it is possible. That said if I did that there would be framed pictures of the group hanging on the wall. Bragging rights!!!!!

He was not using a stock rifle. Krieger Barrels - CONGRATULATIONS to Charles Greer on a... Hope I am doing as well at 83!

 

[AJ]

AJ Sorry about there being no link .Thats a s&w forum thang ! Check your mail .

Got it thanks!

 

[ameridaddy]

Gorgeous group and you'll probably have long life with that brass as those loads don't seem heavy to me.

I'm using a heavier dose H-335 for my prairie dog gun, albeit under the 50gr V-Max. I don't see my setup laying down a hole that small with a 10-shot group. Could it? Possibly, but I would not bet money on it.

However... I bag more of those critters every year and at longer distances, too. I'm launching them from a Howa 1500 with 24-inch heavy barrel and a big Vortex glass on top.

A pdog hunt is on my bucket list. Where do you go for yours?

 

[AJ]

I like it. This action had the bolt handle turned down and scope mounts when I got it. I need to get a stock and scope and try to shoot it some this summer. Going to start off with a couple boxes of factory ammo and see where it goes from there.

My Swedish CG-63 does not have a turned down bolt handle and there is no provisions to mount a scope. I do not plan to D&T the rifle, will shoot it with irons until I can no longer do so. Come on down and you can shoot with us now. It will be 80 degrees tomorrow.