SC 340 Marks on Cylinder and Frame

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perpster, thank you for your input. Are the locking bolt and the center pin in contact when the cylinder is closed? If there is a gap, how wide is it (eyeballed)?

My guess is that if you (me) don't fix the problem with the cylinder locking as indicated by these marks which I described in my initial posting you will end up with a bent cylinder axis or a ruined frame. If you don't get a serious problem caused by a bullet not properly entering the forcing cone...

Thanks again,
Fritz
The rearward tip of the locking bolt is slanted, so that the center pin can slide past it and lock in place. When closed up, the entire slanted tip of the bolt is inside the cup at forward end of the ejector rod. You can just barely make out the beginnings of the slanted cut-off portion. Also, when closed up and the thumbpiece is pushed all the way forward, the front tip of the center pin is visible extending past the forward edge of the ejector rod tip, and the locking pin gets pushed into the underlug/shroud so that the non-slanted portion just disappears, leaving only the slanted tip visible to the point where the center pin is making contact in the space between the underlug/shroud and the ejector rod tip.

Hope this helps.
 
Here are some more pictures:
View attachment 9856
View attachment 9857
View attachment 9858
Frame and cylinder are clear from each other. But when I force the cylinder down with my fingers, I nearly - but not totaly - can close the gap. I can imagine that the force of a 357 load will be able to force this completely down.
View attachment 9860
View attachment 9859

Thanks for your input,
Fritz

My brand new 329pd,(14 rounds total), has marks on it like #2 & #4.
 
Hello,

in Germany, only certified gunsmiths are allowed to work on guns. So me, I would not be allowed to change the centerpin of this gun. The idea behind this is, that the gunsmiths are protected in order to do a job that good, that a customer is unable to estimate it. Old mediaval logic, has nothing to do with a modern view of citizenship. But that is the way the old world is ogranized like. The gunsmith are organized in medival groupings called "Zunft" and they determine who will become member of the club and hence can control competition. For the best of "the citizen", obviously.

Furthermore a government agency called the "Beschussamt" has to test every gun before it can be sold and after any repair is done on most stressed parts like cylinder and barrel. They fire the revolver with pressure 30% above the CIP (which is higher than SAAMI) with one round per bore in the cylinder. Afterwards they have to check the most stressed parts (like the cylinder) for any failures (what IMHO would cover the marks on my gun). They also have to check functionality, which includes wether the gun securely locks.

Thus I had to go back to the gunsmith to have him fix the gun. I wrote him, that the combination of short centerpin and somewhat week springs is the probable cause of the problem.

Now the gun is back with me. Gunsmith said he visually inspected the gun and could not detect any problem. And as the "Beschussamt" has tested the gun, he ruled out that there could be any anomaly. He refused to consider the marks. Nor did he any test to verify the problem. Not his business.

He offerd me to make the locking pin protrude a little more and to oil the gun - but insisted that he has no obligation to do whatsoever. He further added that it is impossible to shoot this gun with 357magnum loads due to recoil. He said it is evident that this gun is only to be shot in 38special. Only in case of defense you might fire one shot in 357magnum. Call me a fortune teller, I would not take offense, sounds really unbelievable.

I got the gun back, the locking pin protrudes about 3 thousands more than before. Still, when the cylinder is locked, the centerpin is this far recessed, that it is more than 4 hundreds (eyeballed) off the locking pin and thus still has quite a bit of room to gain momentum.

Had no chance to go to the range to check the gun, it's just to cold over here.

What I will do is the following: I will put a small piece of tape at the frame where the marks are and shoot with a very mild 38special load. Predicted outcome: Tape will not show any marks.

Then I will load factory ammo from Sellier&Bellot, 158grs conforming to CIP (above SAAMI). Predicted outcome: Tape will show marks.


If things are going like i predict, I will send the gun back again and ask him to change the centerpin.

If he refuses, I will contact the federal agency responsible for the surveillance of the gunsmiths. Again I dare to predict what will happen. As the same breed of men is sitting in the institutions controlling the "Zunft" and as in doubt only members of the "Zunft" (basically a face-to-face-group) are accepted to judge the case, this will only cost me my money and my time.

Felix Americas!

Fritz
 
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Gun failed the test

Hello,

finally it got warm over here, about 32°F. At least warm enough to got to the range ;-) So I have been there. Results as expected: The gun is not shootable.

I did cover the old mark on the frame with ink. Before shooting, it looked like that:
before.jpg

Then I shot a mild 38special load (Remingto 110gn SJHP before 3gn of Trailboss, my chrony reads about 670fps shot from my 6"Ruger for this load). After about 20 shot, it looked like that:
after38.jpg
Conclusion: When shot with 38special, no contact between frame an cylinder.

Next I shot a 357magnum factory CIP-conform load with 158gn from Sellier & Bellot.
357CIP.jpg

After only one shot the frame looked like that:
after357CIP.jpg

Conclusion: CIP-conform 357-loads are too hot for the gun.


Next test was a 357magnum factory SAAMI-conform load with 158gn from magtech. This time I emptied the whole cylinder before looking and getting this result:
after357SAAMI.jpg

Conclusion: SAAMI-conform 357-loads are too hot for the gun.

Next I shot a mild 357magnum handload (180gn Remington SJHP before 5.5gn of Titegroup, a min load according to hodgdon, thus well below SAAMI). Again the frame had contact with the cylinder.

Will bring it back to the gunsmith. He is one of the biggest in the country and after all has to loose some reputation. If he can't fix it this time, I will go to a specialist - I never give up hope, there should be someone able and willed to do a decent job in this industry.

Stay tuned, the story continues.

And don't forget to check your gun and have your buddy check his.

Fritz
BTW: Did order a centerpin from Brownells. After all the cure to the problem is a twenty minute job for anyone who is able to lace his shoes (and owns a file)
Ordered 02-19-2010 arrived today 02-24-2010. Not bad, Brownells, not bad.
 
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Does S&W still sells this gun? Couldn't find it on their site.

Fritz
 
S&W does not stand behind their products either

This reads like a bad dream.
Yes, a bad dream, indeed. Did contact S&W. Appearantly no reaction.

Neither did they answer my question or did assist me in any way to assure that their product I have in hand is not dangerous. Nor did they inquire in any way appearant to me to exclude that there is a threat by design on this product.

I know for sure my gun and another one having this problem. And suspect that some of the statements in the internet are releated to this design / mal-specification.

IMHO the mass of the centerpin in relation to the guns mass is this high, that a centerpin (and corresponding locking pin with their related springs) well in spec for a steel gun is disfunctional for one of the alloy guns.

IMHO from this results that there are many guns of this kind in customers hand which are a potential threat to the customers health.

IMHO any manufacturer and its distriubtor have the obligation to follow any hints that there is such a threat which after all they have created.

IMHO S&W has the obligation to make a recall on these guns or at least to inform their customers to check, wether in their individual case the springs are strong enough.

If they don't it is up to you, do judge if this is an honest mans behaviour.

At least it is illegal in Germany to behave the way the gunsmith did - for the Germans who read this, the term is "Produzentenhaftung", not to be mixed up with "Produkthaftung".

And I can't believe, that in the States it is legal that S&W doesn't react when confronted with a customer believing to have a gun in his hands being a threat to his health.

I am upset.

Fritz
BTW: Had a talk to the gunsmith. Apparently he did not take my quest for serious and simply did not realize the problem. Still not really customer oriented. But already better. He now promised to fix the problem.
 
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Maybe you should call S&W during their business hours and ask to speak to someone in the revolver repair center. For that matter, maybe your gunsmith might want to call and ask to speak to one of their engineering staff. Might be more productive than speculation.

Anyway, I have a similar light scuff mark on the Scandium aluminum alloy frame of my M&P 340 just forward of the cylinder stop window. The cylinder is steel in my model, so I can barely make out a corresponding scuff in the finish of the cylinder just forward of a couple of the cylinder's stop notches. I'd imagine the softer finish of a titanium cylinder might allow for more of a scuffing.

Anyway, the hand used in the Magnum J-frames has a Bolt Block Pin incorporated in it. We were told (in an armorer class) that as the name implies, it blocks the bolt's forward movement, and is intended to prevent the cylinder from opening under recoil. It was developed for the .357 Magnum models.

When I showed the light scuffing on my SC J-frame to an armorer instructor during an armorer class, he said he wasn't familiar with the specific cause, but didn't feel it was indicative of a problem.

Now, interestingly enough, I've had another armorer instructor previously explain the results of watching a SC/Ti gun being fired while being recorded with S&W's high speed imaging equipment. He said the alloy frame, while strengthened by the inclusion of Scandium in the aluminum alloy, did exhibit a ripple effect across its surface under the heavy recoil of the Magnum rounds. He said it reminded him of watching how the surface of a still pond would suddenly ripple and move when a rock was thrown into it.

While I haven't taken the time to try and call someone in S&W's engineering dept about this matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the stresses normally experienced when Magnum loads are fired in a Sc (or Sc/Ti) gun allow some flexing, expansion or 'rippling' effect to occur ... and that this might allow the cylinder to barely rub up against the frame right in front of the cylinder stop (where the frame is locked against the cylinder). I especially wouldn't be surprised if a titanium cylinder might also allow more scuffing to occur on its corresponding surface during any such contact with the Sc frame (meaning more than has been exhibited on the black finished stainless steel cylinder in my M&P 340).

I don't claim to have the answer to this question. I'm just wondering if this is an issue that only arises with the Sc aluminum alloy frames, and only because of their unique properties under recoil.

Just some thoughts which I've had while browsing this thread.
 
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Maybe you should call S&W during their business hours and ask to speak to someone in the revolver repair center....Might be more productive than speculation.

Where you are right you are right. Anyway, to me it would be easier to communicate via email and I can't see why Smith doesn't answer.

Anyway, I have a similar light scuff mark on the Scandium aluminum alloy frame of my M&P 340 just forward of the cylinder stop window.

Apparently the problem - if it is a problem anyway - is widespread.

Anyway, the hand used in the Magnum J-frames has a Bolt Block Pin incorporated in it. We were told (in an armorer class) that as the name implies, it blocks the bolt's forward movement, and is intended to prevent the cylinder from opening under recoil. It was developed for the .357 Magnum models.
Can't see what part you are talking of nor can I imagine how such a device should work. Could you please shed some light on this part?

I don't have the gun at hand. But as far as I can remember, there is no interference between the hand and the centerpin. BTW Numrich lists the same centerpin for the PD340, SC340 and PD340 on the one side and the steel guns like the 640 on the other side.

Again, please try to shed some light on how this magic device "Bolt Blocking Pin" is intended to work (know this part from Ruger)

Now, interestingly enough, I've had another armorer instructor previously explain the results of watching a SC/Ti gun being fired while being recorded with S&W's high speed imaging equipment. He said the alloy frame, while strengthened by the inclusion of Scandium in the aluminum alloy, did exhibit a ripple effect across its surface under the heavy recoil of the Magnum rounds. He said it reminded him of watching how the surface of a still pond would suddenly ripple and move when a rock was thrown into it.

While I haven't taken the time to try and call someone in S&W's engineering dept about this matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the stresses normally experienced when Magnum loads are fired in a Sc (or Sc/Ti) gun allow some flexing, expansion or 'rippling' effect to occur ... and that this might allow the cylinder to barely rub up against the frame right in front of the cylinder stop (where the frame is locked against the cylinder). I especially wouldn't be surprised if a titanium cylinder might also allow more scuffing to occur on its corresponding surface during any such contact with the Sc frame (meaning more than has been exhibited on the black finished stainless steel cylinder in my M&P 340).
Well, please don't take offense, but I have problems in following this one.

Prove is (would be) easy. I just have to shoot my gun with a longer centerpin and a stronger spring. If the contact is gone, my theory is proven. Unfortunately the gun is with the gunsmith.

Fritz
 
BTW, I suppose I should have mentioned that my yoke, bolt and center pin are all within factory spec and operate normally.

My Sc frame still exhibits the scuff mark, though.

I'm still guessing (SWAG) it's likely to be due to the unique properties of the Sc - Sc/Ti frames when the really lightweight guns are chambered in the harder recoiling Magnum calibers.

Anybody seen it occur in a steel-framed gun?
 
The bolt block pin sticks out on one side of the hand about midway up the hand. It prevents the bolt from moving forward when the hand is in position at the moment of firing. Perhaps your gunsmith could show you the difference between hands with and without a bolt block pin, and could show you (using a revolver with the side plate removed) how this difference could have an influence on function.

There was a change in the Hand, with the newer hand for the Magnum J-frame guns listed as "229510000 $16.00 HAND J .357".

The last time I called to order a couple of spare parts, including some J-frame hands, I was specifically asked whether the parts were going to be used in .38 or .357 Magnum models. The gentleman reminded me that some of the parts, such as the hand, were different for the .357 J-frames.

I'm certainly not inclined to take offense at the opinion of anyone else. ;)

Your gunsmith can probably better explain in person why the center pin must remain within a certain tolerance range in order to provide for proper function.

The center pin, however, being a fitted part for each revolver, must remain within a certain specification in order to function as intended. If being fitted at one end of the recommended spec range results in a lessening of the condition you're seeing, and the gun still otherwise functions as designed, then it sounds as though you will achieve your desire.

I wouldn't necessarily be in a rush to consider this condition a 'problem', though, not without receiving the input of the folks who have designed and manufactured the gun. the first response I received was that it didn't appear to indicate a 'problem'. I haven't since then felt it necessary to try and follow up by asking further 'up the line', so to speak. Maybe later, if only out of curiosity sometime.

There are any number of conditions which someone may be surprised to observe with their firearms, but which are often just a condition occurring as a consequence of normal functioning in any given design/model made using the materials involved in a particular model.

For example, there are still folks who believe that the 'ring' around the cylinder, caused by contact between the ball of the cylinder stop and the cylinder, can be (and should be) prevented and 'fixed'. This marking, called a 'stop track' by S&W, is indicative of how their revolver design operates and is a cosmetic consequence, as it were, not an indication that something is 'wrong'. It's to be expected in a properly built S&W revolver. The degree of its occurrence may vary a bit from any one revolver to another, being influenced by how the various parts and components fit in place and work together in any particular gun.

As far as communicating by email with the company? I have the emails of some of the folks, and sometimes it's not inconvenient to wait for responses, but direct personal conversations can more easily resolve so many more issues without the delay involved of back & forth exchanges.

I've had email exchanges about issues take several days to complete, and then I've had phone conversations with the CS reps, repair techs and even engineers clear up and resolve issues in less than 5 minutes. Of course, it depends on whether the schedules and daily activities of the persons involved allowed a phone connection. ;)

A brief and concise response delivered via email can often be delivered and clarified, if need be, much more easily in person. Think about receiving an email response that merely stated, "Within normal spec. Not a problem." Then think about how a short 1-2 minute explanation might better clarify why it wasn't a problem, and how it might better set someone's mind at ease.

On the other hand, if the company was taking the time to provide an in-depth and detailed explanation for each and every person who called them to ask questions, it might be hard to find the time to go about their other business activities. :)
 
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Fastbolt, after all, the fact that the phenomenon is this widespread might indicate that you are right. Will insist in getting an answer from S&W.

Thanks for your input!
Fritz
 
I really doubt these guns are intended for a steady diet of 357 mags. Call me a wuss but I don't think I want to go shoot a couple hundred per session in a scandium J frame. The cylinder "kissing" the frame may just be how it is and a non-issue aside from minor cosmetics.
 
Fastbolt, do you have a resource where I can have a look at the parts and inner workings of the 357-J-Frames?
If I had my gun at hand, no problem, I would simply dismantle it and have a look. Just can't wait to have it back!

Fastbolt, are you sure, that the centerpin is blocked? From looking at it, I can't believe it. Isn't simply the cylinder release knob blocked?

Fritz
 
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Fastbolt, do you have a resource where I can have a look at the parts and inner workings of the 357-J-Frames?
If I had my gun at hand, no problem, I would simply dismantle it and have a look. Just can't wait to have it back!

Fastbolt, are you sure, that the centerpin is blocked? From looking at it, I can't believe it. Isn't simply the cylinder release knob blocked?

Fritz

Sorry, but I don't have an online working schematic of the J-frame's operation, especially regarding the interaction of the bolt, hand and center pin. There's a couple of more experienced revolver armorers who frequent this forum and who might have something useful in that regard, though. Maybe one of them will have subscribed to this thread and can offer something of that nature. The armorer manual I have doesn't discuss that in particular detail. It was something I wrote down in my notes during the class.

The hand's bolt block pin blocks the bolt (which connects to the thumbpiece nut, though), which pushes the center pin forward to open the cylinder.

If I recall correctly (no guarantee ;) ), finding a way to prevent the bolt from jumping under recoil was originally one of the things involved in the 'performance' revision when earlier .44 Magnum revolvers started exhibiting that problem.

Let us know if you or your gunsmith can receive some clarification from S&W.

I never thought the question the armorer instructor when it was mentioned in the armorer class that the hand's bolt pin was incorporated in the J-frame models chambered in .357 magnum, and I didn't think to ask at what point it was incorporated.

Bear in mind that my thoughts on this matter are nothing more than guess work based upon my revolver armorer class training and examining my own M&P 340 .357 Magnum. I might be totally off base with my speculation.
 
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The hand's bolt block pin blocks the bolt (which connects to the thumbpiece nut, though), which pushes the center pin forward to open the cylinder.

Yes, this is to keep the cylinder closed under recoil on the N-Frames. The cylinder would actually unlatch (you could push it open if it didn't fall open, embarassing you). The X-frame has a sliding piece in the frame to lock the bolt. You can see it in a lock removal pic in FAQ's. Center pins "mushrooming" (and hanging up) from peening themselves on the locking bolt are not uncommon.
 
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