Schofield help please

[DGT]

I have enjoyed reading (and learning from) this forum for quite a while but this is my first post.

I recently found a first model Schofield and am negotiating with he owner now to find out if we can agree on a price. I have read been reading all I can find in "Smith & Wesson 1857 to 1945" and the "Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson" as well as numerous articles on the internet.

I read in one of the articles that there is a serial number on the bottom of the barrel but other articles refer only to the serial number on the Butt of the grip and back of the cylinder. The numbers on the butt and cylinder match and all of the proof marks are correct. Can anyone tell me if there is a serial number on the barrel and, if so, where it is located?

 

[Masterpiece]

Serial Number Locations!!

DGT,

First, Welcome to the Forum & your First Post!! The Serial Number on the 1st Model Schofield you're looking at should be stamped in 6 Locations!! The locations are the Butt,Cylinder Face,Inside the Right Side Grip,Bottom of the Cylinder Catch,the Underside of the Face of the Barrel Catch & lastly on the Left Side of the Barrel underneath the Cylinder Catch!! The reason you're not seeing the Barrel's Serial No. is the fact the Cylinder Catch has to be removed to find it which entains removing the Thru-Screws that hold it in place!! Hope this helps & if you are able to acquire it hopefully you'll post some photos for us to look over!!

 

[DGT]

Masterpiece:

Thanks. I knew I'd find an expert on this forum. Not only did I get an answer but also a lesson in how much I don't know. I have to make a decision by this Sunday. If everything checks out, I have about decided I am willing to pay the asking price if necessary, but haggling is half the fun.

I have looked at lots of Americans and Schofields over the last couple of years but there always seems to be something wrong with their function. It seems that the cylinder won't lock or the extractor won't work or they don't index properly. This thing functions perfectly.

If I'm successful, I'll post pictures (assuming I can figure out how to do it).

Thanks again,
Dave

 

[Masterpiece]

Military???

Hi Dave,

I'm assuming it's a Military Contract Revolver by your notation of the Proof Marks,but you know there were a few that were commercially shipped as well!! You might want to keep that in mind if there aren't US stampings on it!! At least I'm pretty sure the Commercial one's didn't have any!! I'm sure Ed Cornett (opoefc) will be along to correct me if I'm wrong!! I've never seen one in person myself & I'm sure he'll know for sure!! Beings there were only approx. 30-40 of them shipped Commercialy they are Rare,Rare,Rare as Hen's Teeth!! Also,is there any evidence of the Cartouche on the Grip?? That's a definite plus if it's still there!!

 

[DGT]

Good point but I'm not THAT lucky. The owner has a factory letter, dated 2004, which verifies it was delivered to the US government. In the correct light, one can see the evidence of a Cartouche but it is far from legible. If anyone can think of anything else I might check or watch out for please let me know

Thanks

 

[opoefc]

The marks on a Schofield were applied by assemblers, fitters, and inspectors. The inspectors on a 1st model mostly used the letters "L" and "P" . Schofield shipping records are very vague, so a factory letter for a 1st model US gun uses the July 12, 1875, invoice date the factory billed Springfield Armory for the guns. I don't think I've ever seen a 1st model that will letter from the records as a commercially shipped gun. Such a gun could have a "P" stamp, and maybe a partial set of "L" stamps, as the parts were no doubt from guns rejected by the inspectors. It should also have a "C" stamps ( for Condemmed) on some parts. The "P" stamp was applied first, before the inspector stamp, so a gun with an "L" stamp, but not a "P" stamp in an anomaly, as why would an inspector be inspecting a part that had not been proved? Roy Jinks once told me he had seen one and some prior owner had applied a fake US stamp, thinking that would enhance the value! Serial # 5 is believed to be a civilian gun, due to lack of inspector stamps, however Roy has told me " a quick look at his data does not show any low serial numbered guns as civilian models." There are known Schofields that do not have a complete set of martial inspectors stamp, for example ser. # 6 in my collection. It is known that Col Schofield privately purchased several Schofields from S&W for his personal use, early in the production period, and it's possible that those guns were taken from the production line before all the parts received their L or P stamps, as they were not going to Springfield armory. Ser. No. 1, formerly in my collection and now in Jim Supica's collection, has all the right inspection stamps, and presumbably went to the Springfield Armory. Ed.

 

[DGT]

WOW! I never cease to be amazed by the depth of knowledge on this forum.

I have collected S&Ws for several years now, mostly pre-war hand ejectors and post-war 4 and 5 screw models. I've been lucky enough to acquire a KC magnum, target model triple lock among others. I feel pretty comfortable with my knowledge of guns of this era but feel a bit like a "fish out of water" when looking at Schofields.

Having people, like the members of this forum, willing to share their knowledge is awsome.

 

[DGT]

opoefc, I see that you, as well as many on this forum are a member of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Assn. I am a pretty avid collector of S&Ws and would like to join but, when I printed the application, it calls for a signature of a current member. I don't personally know any members. Any advice for a guy like me, or am I just SOL?

 

[Masterpiece]

Hi Dave,

I see Ed found you!! I figured he would sooner or later!! He's alot better at explaining the details than myself!! I get the job done, but it takes forever to type it up with my limited typing skills!! I generally get all the information down, but it's just not as easily understood sometimes unless you're familiar with what I'm explaining!! Thanks,Ed!!

Also, one thing you didn't mention was whether or not you found the Revolver to have the Correctly Serial-No. stamped Grip & if the Barrel was still Full-Length!! Don't know why I didn't think to ask sooner!! I did catch that it does still have an existing "Cartouche" which should mean it has some condition left to the Revolver!! Can't wait to see some photos when you come to a meeting of the minds with it's present owner!!

Good Luck!!

 

[DGT]

Masterpiece,

I cannot answer your question as to the serial number in the grip. I saw a faint cartouche and, at that point was satisfied. You and Opoefc have given be a lot of valuable information and further things to check. As for the barrel length, it still sports the 7" barrel.

Compared to some of the pictures I've seen on this forum, this gun will win no beauty awards. Almost no original finish left, just a smooth gray/brown patina. It has some light pitting along both sides of the barrel. The thing that captured my interest is the function. The action is crisp and the lock-up is as tight as any revolver that I own. As I said, I have found this to be unusual in the Americans and Schofields that I have handled.

 

[Masterpiece]

Dave,

Just having the Left Grip Cartouche still exist is a "Big" Bonus & most likely if the Grips look to have the same condition as the rest of the Revolver the Matching Serial No. will be present when they're removed!! Not saying for sure it will be, but most likely!! Nice to hear the Barrel Length's original as well!! Also, no need to make excuses for it's condition!! It sounds to me to be a Revolver having seen honest use, but not "Abused" & they're hard to find!!

On a side note, I have no doubt you've seen very many High Condition Schofield's unless they've been in someone's collection for many,many,many years!! They do pop up from time to time at some of the Big Auction Houses, but most of those bring prices somewhere in the stratosphere if they're Correct & Documented with any Provenance to their use!! Even here, most you'll see aren't near perfect & a Gray Patina'd Revolver with some finish in the protected areas is still a Very Desireable Revolver as far as I'm concerned!! I'll take a Mechanically Sound & Correct Original one over a Prettied-Up Refinished and/or Restored one anyday!!

Take Care

 

[opoefc]

DGT, Pls. see PM. Ed.

 

[DGT]

Masterpiece:

Nice to hear that someone thinks like I do. I always start with mechanical function, if it does not function properly, I look no further. Most of the Americans and Schofields I've handled have been at the Tulsa Gun Show over the years. When I point out a flaw in the function, I always get the same response, "Well, they're all like that". I was beginning to think that what I was looking for simply didn't exist (at least in my price range). In fact, I was talking to a fellow collector a couple of weeks ago and he asked how my search was going. I told him I had given up and quit looking. Isn't that the way it always seems to work? Quit looking and one will find you.

 

[DGT]

GOT IT!

Finally reached a deal on the Schofield! Many thinks to Masterpiece and Opoefc for all their help. I'm going to try to post pics:

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[Masterpiece]

Congratulations!!!

Hi Dave,

You did good!! I sure wouldn't be ashamed to have that sitting in my collection anyday!! I see the Photos you posted tell the tale if the Right Grip matches or not!! Nice Revolver that's survived the course of time!! Are you going to let us know if you had to mortgage the House to buy it or not?? Ha!Ha! A Fine Honest Piece!!

 

[DGT]

Thanks

Thank you! I'm really happy with it. I don't know if I would have had the nerve to "pull the trigger" on the deal (pun intended) if it were not for the information you and Opoefc provided. With that info, I could feel confident about the gun. As to price, I was happy with the deal. Is it considered bad form to post prices? A few more pics...

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[model3sw]

I recall, years back, someone associated with the S&WCA had screws for the Schofield produced by a machinist (or some such). I need a set of screws for a 2nd Model Schofield. I've had it for many, many years. No finish remaining but mechanically sweet without any alterations. I had to have one of the upper catch plate screws extracted by a gunsmith as the screw had been boogered beyond recognition. I'd like to get the correct screws (not those made for the Uberti or any other replica unless they are identical including head and thread pitch / TPI,which I recall is NOT a common nor standard thread in use today. Thanks, Sal