Screw Removal Problem

[Rick H.]

Last update on this situation. I was shocked when I received a notice the day after I took my slide and optic into the gunsmith for repair that it was ready for pickup. Not one full working day and it was finished! Unbelievable!! I went to pick it up and was charged the lowly amount of $45.00 for the screw removal, cleanup and reinstallation of the optic with a new battery in it. I guess our wires got crossed up because I really didn't want them to install the optic as I wanted to do that myself, but what the heck, it was installed. The slide and optic looked in excellent condition without damage

I asked if I could talk to the gunsmith that did the repair and he came out from the shop and I asked him if he didn't mind, could he tell me how he got the stuck screw out. He smiled a bit and said sure and then proceeded to tell me how he did it. His method for this was pretty simple. He put the slide in a padded vise and took a straight punch that went to the bottom of the screw through the Torx head opening and gave it a few good hits. Not enough to damage the screw or threads just dislodge it if possible. At that point he told me he told me there are good Torx drivers and cheap Torx drivers. Good ones fit tight in the screw head and can withstand substantial rotational force while cheap ones just break. Good bits are expensive at around $5.00 or more dollars apiece. I have since perused the internet and found what I think are some better Torx bits and ordered them for the next job I have.

I didn't get a chance to see the second screw that was removed from the slide, but clearly the paint had little affect on the first screw as the Kroil had removed it all. Unfortunately the Kroil had little to no affect on the thread locker, which actually looks like two types of thread lockers. I pretty much go by what manufacturers say about screw tightness, but I think in the future I will lighten up a bit on small screw torque and keep an eye on the screws at first, especially if the Torx screw uses a #8 bit or less. If I decide to mark screws for any potential loosening I will scribe a line on them. No paint for me although I did not mark the problem screws. All in all this was a good learning experience for me. Clearly Torx screws can take a lot more force than I thought they could as long as you use good drivers. Good tools equal better results.

Rick H.

 

[Tinkertech]

I once had a Benille Nova 12 Ga shot gun that had a damage magazine tube that needed to be replaced.
No big deal I thought, it just screws in. Much to my surprise the tube would not budge no matter what I did, I tried all the tricks.
I finally contacted Loctite and they surmised that the tube had been installed with RED Loctite, you could see small traces of it. To make matters worse the tube had extremely fine threads.
According to Loctite the only way to break loose RED Loctite was to heat the parts to 350* because no solvent would work.
So I heated up the magazine tube with a propane touch and using a strap wrench finally got it off.
RED Loctite is the devil and should never be used on anything that would ever have to be unassembled.

 

[Rick H.]

Last point on this matter....I am not an engineer, nor a gunsmith or even a machinist. Just a regular guy interested in working on firearms. I don't consider myself a "bubba" by a long shot and like to do my own work whenever possible as I don't trust others in many cases to do the work correctly and without damage. I have never liked a # 6 screw with a #8 Torx head on them. It always seemed to me to be a very small head on a screw that can be subjected to a great deal of force. Add in a threadlocker of unknown make and it compounds the problem.

To make matters worse we have at our disposal many makes of unknown quality Torx bit drivers including Torx Plus and Torx security drivers. Which of these to use and when best to use them? What is the strongest for a given application? No one seems to really know and if they do they aren't saying? What is the maximum load that one can put on a Torx driver before it twists or breaks? A trip to my hardware store revealed at least four different makes of Torx bit drivers in #8 size, but no one there seemed to know what was the strongest one.

Looking up information on the internet on these screws and drivers was quite revealing. Torque loads on these screws and bits was all over the place. Some were really quite low, much lower than what I thought. For some reason I thought 15 inch pounds was a good torque limit on these screws, but from what I read both in the USA and across the pond that information may not be correct. Of course one has to remember the quality of the screws and drivers must be taken into consideration. So after becoming somewhat confused by all this I am going to reconsider what I feel is a "safe" torque limit on these screws. I could be wrong, but I think 10 to 12 inch pounds is the limit. 10 if I am applying threadloacker. I always use an inch pounds torque driver when tightening these screws. Even at a 10 inch pound limit I see some twisting of the cheaper Torx bit drivers from the hardware store.

So it really comes down to what do you feel comfortable with in tightening or loosening these small screws? I hate dealing with stripped or broken small screws, so for now anyway less may be better. Anyone care to add to this?

Rick H.

 

[WR Moore]

Read your posts 31 & 33. First, not all bolts/screws (or the drivers) are created equal. When I went shopping for screws for RDOs, McMaster-Carr listed high strength alloy screws of the correct size. They're described/labeled as Torx Plus and the pack includes 2 drivers that fit 1/4 in hex. I invested in the torque limited driver they sell for that screw size, but as I noted earlier, I'm a wee bit chicken to take it to the limit. Occasionally checking for loose screws seems better than thread lockers in this particular use.

I read the description of Torx Plus and it seems a stronger system than the original Torx. But, they don't mention why except that it appears the indent in the head allows for stronger splines on the drivers. They did mention that conventional Torx bits will work on the Plus screws.

This is one of those cases where access to an optical comparitor would be nice to be able to actually see the differences. You can see a lot at 3200X.

 

[BC38]

IMO, even 10 inch-pounds might be too much for most applications.
If you use a little dab of blue loc-tite to prevent the screw from loosening on its own you don't need nearly as much torque to keep the screws tight.