SD9 +P+ and Underwood Ammo

[Jinseru]

Hey everyone. I was doing some research as to the best round as far as expansion and not over penetrating. The round I came up with that met my criteria was Underwood ammo 9mm 115gr +p+ JHP.

The advertised fps was 1400 and the round averaged 1435 out of 5 shots so its living up to its claim. The average size around the round after expansion was .8 in and the penetration was 9in.

Anyone have experience with the SD9 and a +p+ round. And does anyone use Underwood ammo?

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[formula11]

The manual states not to use +P+ ammo

 

[oldtexan]

Hey everyone. I was doing some research as to the best round as far as expansion and not over penetrating. The round I came up with that met my criteria was Underwood ammo 9mm 115gr +p+ JHP.

The advertised fps was 1400 and the round averaged 1435 out of 5 shots so its living up to its claim. The average size around the round after expansion was .8 in and the penetration was 9in.

Anyone have experience with the SD9 and a +p+ round. And does anyone use Underwood ammo?

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If you're picking out a self defense load, I recommend that you read this thread: Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums . The thread details how the FBI tests ammo and which loads meet the FBI standards for service handgun ammunition.

If you go with Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dots, or Federal Bonded or HST (not HydraShok) in 124 gr +P, 127gr, 135gr, or 147 gr, or CorBon's 115 gr +P DPX load, then you'll have a load that will meet the FBI standards. IIRC one or two loads in the Remington Golden Sabre line (147 gr IIRC and maybe a 124 gr load also) make the list as well.

If the Underwood ammo penetrates 9" into properly calibrated ballistic gelatin, then according to the FBI standard (includes at least 12" against bare properly calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin), it would fail to provide sufficient penetration against human threats.

 

[Jinseru]

My only concern is I don't understand why the accepted penetration is so high. Most individuals wouldn't be 12in thick so why look for a round that would penetrate that deep? Ideally you want a round that will go in far enough to reach vital organs and not exit the body. So considering the penetration of this round is 9in wouldn't that equate to halfway through a person who is 18in in diameter? I doubt I will run into a threat that thick ( a foot and a half is mighty heafty ) so even with 9in of penetration, don't I still run into the possibility of over penetrating? I myself am only about 12in in diameter at my thickest point and and I am 210 lbs.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why the FBI feels comfortable making 12in the passing grade?

And as far as the +p+ goes, I know the manual says not to use them, but that's more of an insurance policy on their part than anything else seeing as +p+ isn't regulated. I'm just looking to see if anyone has used +p+ in their SD9 or is comfortable using it or uncomfortable and why.

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[Jinseru]

And I just noticed that you said "bare" ballistic gelatin. This test was done with 4 layers of denim in front of the gelatin. Perhaps this is why the FBI test requires 12in of penetration? I'd expect about a 2in gain in depth if the denim wasn't there.

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[Armed Babysitter]

I wouldn't have an issue carrying ammo rated at +p+, but I wouldn't feed it a steady diet of the stuff.

 

[Jinseru]

Well yeah I'd still target practice with a lighter load. Perhaps a +p 115gr load. Still a bit of kick but not as much.

I would still need to get my 100 rounds in with this new ammo to insure there aren't going to be any feeding or ejecting issues (although I doubt there'll be any).

My main concern is whether or not the SD9 was made well enough to avoid any catastrophic malfunctions. I noticed there's a difference in the type of polymer used on the M&P line and the SD line so I'm a bit worried that the polymer isn't as high quality as you'd like it to be.

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[HalfStack]

My only concern is I don't understand why the accepted penetration is so high. Most individuals wouldn't be 12in thick so why look for a round that would penetrate that deep? Ideally you want a round that will go in far enough to reach vital organs and not exit the body. So considering the penetration of this round is 9in wouldn't that equate to halfway through a person who is 18in in diameter? I doubt I will run into a threat that thick ( a foot and a half is mighty heafty ) so even with 9in of penetration, don't I still run into the possibility of over penetrating? I myself am only about 12in in diameter at my thickest point and and I am 210 lbs.

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why the FBI feels comfortable making 12in the passing grade?

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The human torso is harder to penetrate than the gel. 12" in gel means it may reach the vitals in the human torso. 14"-16" is better.

 

[Jinseru]

I thought the ballistics gel was almost the same consistency as a human. Assuming they checked around I'd like to think the difference in density would be roughly 10%. If that's the case my round would still penetrate 8in (pending any pesky bones don't get in the way). And if the gel was only 75% the same then it would penetrate 6.5in or so (again, barring no bones) which is still halfway through almost any person.

So are we concluding that the ballistics gel we use is less than 50% concurrent with the density it's supposed to be representing?

I'm not being a smart *** or anything, I'm just looking for input and answers. Perhaps a little debate on experiences along the way as well...

This whole issue came up after I saw a test that concluded that the federal classic jhp I was carrying did not expand and always over penetrated. At this point, I wouldn't feel comfortable using my round against someone for fear of injuring a bystander behind or off to the side of said "bg".

 

[marlin.357]

The FBI came up with the standards after the Miami shootout. IIRC the 12" requirement is a result of shots that were not perpendicular to the torso, and also shooting thru an arm prior to hitting the torso. Google FBI Miami Shootout, and you will get all of the background you want.

If you are happy with your ammo use it. There is a tradeoff with expansion and penetration, more expansion, less penetration and vice versa. Test standards are just guidelines, will you always need 12" of penetration, obviously no, but it is a reasonable standard based on real-world events.

OBTW +P+ ammo is not recommended because there are no industry (SAAMI) standards for +P+, might be a little hotter than +P, or a LOT hotter.

 

[OKFC05]

And as far as the +p+ goes, I know the manual says not to use them, but that's more of an insurance policy on their part than anything else seeing as +p+ isn't regulated.

+P+ simply means "loaded above SAAMI standards."
I have no idea what the pressure specs are on the ammo you referenced, and apparently neither do you.

If you ever see a handgun blown apart because of over pressure loads (I have), you'll understand why there are SAAMI standards. Once you go over those, you have to know what exactly you are shooting, and basically you are on your own to decide whether to risk it.

Assuming.......

I have shot a lot of critters, and the real-life results of bullets in animals seldom match the assumptions from theoretical discussions. Critters do have bones, and turn the wrong way, and sometimes the bullet just misses where it intended. As to worries about theoretical over-penetration, what about the large percentage of shots in real shootouts that MISS the intended target and strike something (someone) else?

 

[Jinseru]

And I've thought of that. But I'm looking for overall effectiveness. Considering the round is 1400 fps that is a decent amount hotter than the standard pressure 1100 fps I was using before right?

 

[marlin.357]

Whant we know: Definitly hotter 1400>1100 fps, good expansion, decent penetration, but less than the FBI standard. Will that be more effective? Depends on if and where the target is hit, and the presence and type of any intermediate barriers, including, but not exclusively, clothing.

What we DON"T know: What chamber pressure is being developed to achieve that greater velocity (100 fps > +p load according to Underwood's website), and will the pistol take that pressure on the next pull of the trigger without damage or blowing up in YOUR hand and taking off some non-repairable/replaceable parts of your (or a bystanders) anatomy.

You make your choices, and tke your chances......

 

[Jinseru]

Well the test did have clothing on it. Actually, more than I could imagine anyone would wear. 4 layers of denim and then the ballistics gelatin. That's what I was saying earlier, if the FBI test is against bare gelatin, I could imagine that I'd be getting about 11in on that same test with this load as opposed to 9in with the denim layers first.

 

[Jinseru]

And I finished reading about the Miami shootout, and despite it being a horrible outcome. It seems like it was a case of unfortunate luck. They placed multiple shots but most of them were not placed center mass.

This is something that can happen to any of us hands down... all the training in the world can't prepare you for the endless possibilities you face in a situation like this.

However.

I feel with that much unfortunate luck in that situation, a stronger round would have helped.

But.

That is just for this particular case. Generally speaking, I'd rather not have to worry about pass through than know that the round can pass through an arm and hit vital organs.

I'd like to think that we carry magazines that hold 16 rounds to make up for those unfortunate circumstances where we don't get center mass.

 

[Armed Babysitter]

And I finished reading about the Miami shootout, and despite it being a horrible outcome. It seems like it was a case of unfortunate luck. They placed multiple shots but most of them were not placed center mass.

This is something that can happen to any of us hands down... all the training in the world can't prepare you for the endless possibilities you face in a situation like this.

However.

I feel with that much unfortunate luck in that situation, a stronger round would have helped.

But.

That is just for this particular case. Generally speaking, I'd rather not have to worry about pass through than know that the round can pass through an arm and hit vital organs.

I'd like to think that we carry magazines that hold 16 rounds to make up for those unfortunate circumstances where we don't get center mass.

If that is the conclusion you've come to after reading in detail about the Miami shootout, I'm afraid I can be of no help to you.

 

[Jinseru]

I don't really see how my conclusion was offensive. I agreed that in that case a deeper penetrating round would have helped. But so would have better shot placement.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't I suppose.

 

[EBK]

My only concern is I don't understand why the accepted penetration is so high. Most individuals wouldn't be 12in thick so why look for a round that would penetrate that deep?

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why the FBI feels comfortable making 12in the passing grade?



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My understanding for the reasoning behind this decision. It is a
Direct result of the 1986 Miami shoot out between the FBI and two armed bank robbers that had hit many banks in the area.

One of the agents armed with a 9MM S&W shot one of the suspects from the right side. The bullet passed through the robbers arm and into the chest area stopping just short of the heart. The robber was able to continue fighting and kill 2 agents and wound 5 others. both robbers were eventually killed.

From this link
1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt's right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt's eventual death"

 

[Jinseru]

Right I read that. But it just seemed like bad luck that they didn't get center mass with all of those shots. Remember, from the same article you learn that the gunfight was in a civilians front yard. Would it have been better for all of those rounds to pass through and endanger bystanders?

Either or. I understand where the regulation came from now. But their tests are on bare gelatin. The test I gathered my info from is with 4 layers of denim before the gelatin. Seems like the round would be expected to penetrate less with all that denim covering it.

Ideally.

Shoot for center mass.

But have the common courtesy to minimize danger to bystanders by picking a round less likely to over penetrate.

To the other topic.

Does anyone on this forum shoot +p+ rounds through their SD? Or has anyone on here ever done it before? Or carry +p+ as a ccw load? Any reasons why someone on here would doubt the SD's ability to handle a reputable +p+ load?

 

[RedFalconBill]

What these people are trying to tell you, politely, is that there is no reason to use +P+ ammo.

+P+ ammo has no SAAMI, or CIP standard. Winchester and Federal try, key word is try, to keep the PSIA to 42,000 psi.

What additional effectiveness are you thinking you will see by going to +P+ loads?

The point is not that the SD line cannot handle +P+, because it can, the point is just how long do you expect your pistol to last when firing near proof loads? You will be taking thousands of rounds off of its effective life for no real increase in effectiveness.

You do not shoot for COM, as there is nothing in the COM that would stop a fight. Aim for the Thoracic Triangle Area between the armpits & throat.

Platt was shot by SA Dove and his 115gr Silvertip caused a non survivable wound (at least non survivable w/o immediate medical assistance). Platt was able to use his Mini-14, despite being shot multiple times, and kill numerous FBI Agents.

The reason why 12" is the FBI minimum is because of cross torso shots, or shooting through intermediate objects (light concealment or arms). The 4 layer denim test is considered a "worse case" test for evaluating bullet performance. For an armed civilian, the chances of you needing to shoot at an automobile is a lot less than an LE officer, not eliminated, just lessened. If a load was reliable and accurate out of my pistol but penetrated on the light side when tested in 10% gel (say 11" to 13", as opposed to being 13" to 16" for most LE loads), I would not lose sleep over it.

Were I you, I would get some professional instruction and learn to shoot well. Then shoot a number of SD/HD loads out of my pistol to find out what is the most reliable and accurate, then buy a couple of cases of that load.

To a great extent it is the singer and not the song.

BTT, I have carried +P+ (specifically the 127gr Ranger T load) in many 9x19's and I still have 10-12 boxes of it in my basement. I now use either std., or +P, loads, depending upon what 9mm we are talking about, as I got nothing but increased recoil and muzzle blast from shooting the +P+.

As always you are free to differ and go your own way.