Secret Service / FBI Ammo

[shawn mccarver]

Hi:
In the revolver era the .38spl 158gr LSWC-HP +P was called the "Secret Service / FBI carry ammo.

In regard to the Secret Service were a shooting to protect the President would likely be very close range and in a crowd of people, was over penetration a concern ?

Thanks,
Jimmy

The Winchester 38 Special 158 grain +P LSWCHP was called the FBI Load or, in the midwest, sometimes the Chicago or St. Louis Load, both of who used it.

Secret Service, on the other hand, used the so-called Treasury Load, the 38 Special 110 grain JHP +P+ (a low end .357 Magnum for use in 38 Special revolvers).

 

[Texas Star]

The Winchester 38 Special 158 grain +P LSWCHP was called the FBI Load or, in the midwest, sometimes the Chicago or St. Louis Load, both of who used it.

Secret Service, on the other hand, used the so-called Treasury Load, the 38 Special 110 grain JHP +P+ (a low end .357 Magnum for use in 38 Special revolvers).

The load you mentioned was replaced in the FBI by the the one mentioned by SIG P-220. The reason was they thought that later round penetrated better on car bodies.

However, the earlier load works pretty well. It was std. issue in Dallas,and one officer killed six felons with it, using his issued four-inch M-64.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I like the +P+ 110 gr Winchester load for urban carry in my "magnum" framed Model 60-12 (one of the last .38 only Model 60s produced). For some reason, it still shoots on the sights pretty good.

 

[Old cop]

The FBI +P load was our issued ammo and it saved my butt on more than one occassion.

 

[poordevil]

Much mention has been made here to over penetration of the Standard .38 Special Police Load (158 gr Lead Round Nose) and hotter .38 Special loads.

Just how much over penetration was a problem or was there really that much over penetration going on?

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald, with a 2" Colt, why was there no over penetration? The gun was a Colt. 2" BBL. The ammo available at the time was , .38 Police Special (158 gr Lead Round Nose) Or 200gr Super Police or 148 gr wade cutter.

Or did the round exit? Many police types where right there in the line of fire. I do not remember anyone being hit by Ruby except Oswald.

Is over penetration with the .38 Special really that much to be concerned about??

 

[M E Morrison]

Much mention has been made here to over penetration of the Standard .38 Special Police Load (158 gr Lead Round Nose) and hotter .38 Special loads.

Just how much over penetration was a problem or was there really that much over penetration going on?

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald, with a 2" Colt, why was there no over penetration? The gun was a Colt. 2" BBL. The ammo available at the time was , .38 Police Special (158 gr Lead Round Nose) Or 200gr Super Police or 148 gr wade cutter.

Or did the round exit? Many police types where right there in the line of fire. I do not remember anyone being hit by Ruby except Oswald.

Is over penetration with the .38 Special really that much to be concerned about??

for one thing, it's a LOT different today - flocks of greedy people and shady lawyers just looking for a case

 

[PALADIN85020]

As I recall, an alternate FBI load was the .38 special 158-gr. LSWC +P (no hollow point) for increased penetration, particularly in cold weather. I still have a couple of boxes of this load, in this case produced by Winchester.

John

 

[AZretired]

When we moved into this house in 1980, one of my neighbors was an immigration enforcement officer. He had been a Border Patrolman down in Arizona before that.

I don't know if it was his department's policy or just his supervisor's, but they issued him a 50 round box of Winchester's 110 grain "Treasury" loads and a 50 round box of W-W 148 grain mid-range match ammo every month. They were told to shoot it and bring back the empties.

He was a year or two from retirement and although he enjoyed shooting and hunting, the novelty of those 110 grain bombs in his 2-1/2 inch Model 19 had worn off. I thus got a new part-time job working for him making once-fired brass.

We were a few boxes ahead of schedule, so when he retired, I had a few hundred rounds of each. A couple of years later, my shooting buddy and I went in on a chronograph and a Ransom Rest.

I don't recall the exact figures any longer but the hot .38 was less than 50 fps slower than Winchester's 110 grain .357 Magnum loading fired from the same revolver. We shot 10 or 15 rounds through a 2 inch Model 60 but the rest we shot through various .357's from 2-1/2 to 8-3/8 inches.

It was loud, nasty stuff.

When I started in LE in 1978 my department issued the M-19 loaded with Federal .357 Magnum 125gr JHP. That was hot ammo and was famous for flame cutting and worn forcing cones, but it's also round that gave the 357 its stopping power reputation. OTOH the Fed/Rem/WW 110gr .357 was a ***** cat compared to the 125 gr. The 110gr +P+ load was designed to give near the performance of the 110 gr. 357 but to not be an "actual" magnum.

Many tests made back in the day showed the 110 +P+ and 357 Mag to fail to penetrate car bodies but 125 & 158 gr. 357s cut through cars with energy to spare.

 

[jframejoey]

.38 special 158-gr. LSWC +P (no hollow point)

Had a boat load of this round gifted to me. Hot stuff! And this is exactly what I carry in snubs for Boston winters.

 

[usmc2427765]

During my tenure as a firearms instructor for a major Texas police Dept., I had the chance to fire many of the Treasury loads, which were manufactured by Winchester and Federal , and they were HOT 110 grain 38 special +p+ and they were primarily concerned with penetration concerns. They were especially entertaining at night when the muzzle blast went about 10 yards down range. 357 magnum must have been a four letter word to the feds. The FBI load was a 38 special +p lead semi-wadcutter hollow point that was not very impressive. The FBI special agents that came to our range to shoot were somewhat defensive about their lukewarm load. Sadly, it took the Miami shootout to change attitudes.

 

[Texas Star]

During my tenure as a firearms instructor for a major Texas police Dept., I had the chance to fire many of the Treasury loads, which were manufactured by Winchester and Federal , and they were HOT 110 grain 38 special +p+ and they were primarily concerned with penetration concerns. They were especially entertaining at night when the muzzle blast went about 10 yards down range. 357 magnum must have been a four letter word to the feds. The FBI load was a 38 special +p lead semi-wadcutter hollow point that was not very impressive. The FBI special agents that came to our range to shoot were somewhat defensive about their lukewarm load. Sadly, it took the Miami shootout to change attitudes.

Odd that you'd say that. That load, in Agent Mireles's M-586, is what killed both perps in that incident.

It had a good rep in Dallas PD. FBI agents and Dallas cops could both use 145 grain .357 Silvertips as an option. The Bureau did say that approval had to be obtained from the local SAC.

 

[30-30remchester]

An interesting thread for sure. I enjoy hearing from real LEO and their experiences. So much on the net is speculation. I have never fired a shot in anger but have taken or seen taken hundreds of big game animals with everything from a 22 to 54 caliber muzzle loaders. The one observation I have seen is those 158 grain lead swc's of soft lead do not tear up much tissue. When recovered they mushroom well but the wound channel has no ragged hole. When hot jacketed bullets are used, then the holes look far more impressive, the jacket acting as little fast rotating knives. Just my observation from limited experiences. For my personal preference I would use Keith hard cast swc's, they kill better than they should. I shot a bear 5 times at muzzle, through the body, and all bullets exited, using a 6" 357. Or I would use something like Remington Golden Sabers with impressive segmented jackets. I have one of these from a 380 ACP recovered from am antelope and it is picture perfect. One note on the 357 Mag and 110 grain hollow point penetration. In my recovered bullet collection I have a 110 grain Hornaday HP loaded hot, fired from a 6" 357. The bullet was recovered from a 2# groundhog shot at 10 yards distance. The little groundhog stopped the bullet and the bullet did not even make it to the far side skin but was lodged in the body cavity. About 3" of penetration was all.