Seeking info on old revolver...

[PigOPs]

This revolver belonged to my wife's great grandmother. I has been given to us and I am intrigued by it but know nothing about old revolvers (I'm a glock/ar15 fan.). I was hoping some of the experts around here could shed some light on the age and ballpark value of the gun.

Markings:

Serial # 436xxx
Number marked on frame under cylinder 69456
Barrel marked 38 S. & W. Special CTG
The top has three patent dates feb 6, 06; sept 14, 09; dec 29,14

Any and all info is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Pig

 

[Art Doc]

A Military & Police Model from around 1920 or so. S&W's bread and butter gun. Becomes the Model 10 in 1957.

 

[murphydog]

SP is correct on the ID. It appears to have had its original finish (blue?) removed but the metal seems to be relatively well-preserved. If so it is probably not worth more than $200, but you can't really place a value on a family heirloom as it is irreplaceable. Hope this is helpful.

 

[PigOPs]

SP is correct on the ID. It appears to have had its original finish (blue?) removed but the metal seems to be relatively well-preserved. If so it is probably not worth more than $200, but you can't really place a value on a family heirloom as it is irreplaceable. Hope this is helpful.

I thought it was stainless... I don't believe that her great gma would remove the bluing. Is stainless possible?

ETA: would never dream of selling it... Should I get it checked out before shooting?

 

[arjay]

It's about 60 years early for stainless.

 

[66Park]

The gun isn't stainless. It is far too old. The first stainless Smith and Wesson was the Model 60, introduced in 1965.

 

[PigOPs]

Nickel? Chromed? I do not believe any finish has been removed.

 

[Art Doc]

Refinishing in nickel was a common practice on older guns. I can't say for sure whether this one is original nickel or if it has been refinished (my gut reaction is to lean towards refinished) but others seem to think it has been. All I can say at this point is that it is certainly possible that the revolver has been refinished. If you choose not to believe it that's your choice.

 

[PigOPs]

I really appreciate all of your help and am sure that you all know much more than me about these. However, I'm not choosing not to believe anything. I am looking at a gun that I have in my possession and reading what I can find on it... My understanding is that it was not uncommon for these to be nickel/chrome finished from the factory during this time period. Based on my experience with vintage guitars and refinishing parts to match I am drawing the conclusion that it's an original finish. I don't care about the value but I would like to know the history. What is leading you all to believe it's a refin? Are there any tell-tell signs I could look for? Are the pearl grips something that would be on a s&w of that era?

 

[JP@AK]

PigOps
It is possible the nickel is original. On 4th change guns made in the early 1920s nickel is uncommon but not unknown. They were never finished with chrome, by the way.
There are some signs on this gun that may indicate the nickel is original but we can't say for sure. Look closely at the hammer and trigger. If there is nickel on them, it definitely has been refinished. If not, maybe. A factory letter would tell you for sure, but as far as actual monetary value this revolver would not justify the cost of a letter.
Regards,
JP

 

[PigOPs]

Thanks all! JP@AK, I do not care about monetary value... nor do I care enough to get a factory letter. The trigger and hammer do not appear to have any finish but it's hard to say for sure. If it is a refinish, someone did one heck of a job. I just wished my wife had asked her "little granny" about it before she passed. I am interested in firing it. My wife is finally coming around to firearms and really would like to shoot this gun. Anything I need to be careful of?

Thanks again!

 

[DCWilson]

In original condition, S&W revolvers of this era always have hammers and triggers that show the colors of case hardening. A blued or nickeled hammer or trigger is presumptive evidence of a refinish by someone who didn't know the factory protocols. (S&W factory refinishes always left those moving parts in the original finish, or restored that finish.)

Another thing to look out for is a gully anywhere on the sideplate/frame boundary. The factory (and good independent refinishers) always polish the right side of the gun with the sideplate in place. When they are polished separately, edges are rounded over and you end up with a gully. I see a shadow line near the front of the sideplate that may be the marker of an off-gun sideplate refinish.

Pin and stud tops are often flattened in a pre-refinishing polish. A pre-refinish polish can also put a slightly softer radius on the corners of the yoke and the frame under the barrel.

That said, some of those indicators are not observed on your gun. If it is a refinish, it is a fairly good one. Frame corners not radiused, pins not polished flat, for example. But the trigger looks as though it may have been plated. I just can't tell from the photos. The hammer looks drab, like case coloring has been worn off or just faded away.

 

[Tom K]

I don't want to get into a gut-thumping contest here (I believe Saxon Pig would win that one ) but my gut says it's the original nickel finish. The hammer and trigger do not look nickeled to me (a dead giveaway of a refinish), although the trigger seems to have lost most of its case color. The flecks on the sideplate and slight wear at the sides of the muzzle look consistent with an original gun of this age to me, particularly considering that it was owned by someone's great-grandmother. It definitely doesn't appear "in the white" as if the finish has been completely removed.

The pearl grips are unlikely factory since they have no medallions but are very nice and appear unchipped. I have a similar nickel and pearl .38 (the middle gun in the picture below) which I bought via Gunbroker in 2011 for under $400, but mine is of a later vintage.


http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/226247-amazing-colossal-ladysmith.html

Your wife's revolver would probably shine up nicely with a light application of Flitz (a mild polish paste) or you can leave it as-is, with its history intact. Either way I'm happy to read that you intend to keep it in the family - try to find out more about great-grandma and pass on the info to your heirs when the time comes.

*I see David Wilson replied while I was writing. I had noticed the slight line at the front of the sideplate but the pictures aren't quite detailed enough for me to decide it the edge has been rounded, or if it's just not quite snugged down flush. I'm still thinking it's original nickel.

As for shooting it, stick with standard velocity .38s and you'll be fine. Target wadcutters are nice and mild and accurate and fun to shoot. +P ammo probably wouldn't hurt it but why chance it? And, I think it would be more pleasing to great-grandma's memory to use the same kind of ammo she might have.

**Also, is it fair to say that it is not insulting to call you Pig?

 

[PigOPs]

Refinishing in nickel was a common practice on older guns. I can't say for sure whether this one is original nickel or if it has been refinished (my gut reaction is to lean towards refinished) but others seem to think it has been. All I can say at this point is that it is certainly possible that the revolver has been refinished. If you choose not to believe it that's your choice.

I don't think you two are disagreeing... I really appreciate all of the help. I checked the line. It's definitely not rounded. Neither are any of the pins. The trigger/hammer have case hardening, it's just hard to see in the pic (iPhone).

 

[glowe]

If you look under the right stock, you should see a B or N stamped on the butt frame. Sometimes it is stamped under the barrel lug. That will settle the argument of what the original finish was. It could have been re-nickeled, but at least you will know what the original finish was.

Many guns were properly refinished in the past, so just because your trigger and hammer are not nickeled is not a sure indication of originality. Usually a gun was refinished because of excessive wear and rust. If you look very closely, you might find some small pits somewhere on the gun, maybe under the stocks. If there is finish in any pits or scratches, it was refinished.

Lastly, I know that you do not care much about value, but you can not find a working example of a Model 1905 anymore for $200. Yours would sell all day long for $400 plus at auction. If polished up, probably more.

 

[DCWilson]

I don't think you two are disagreeing... I really appreciate all of the help. I checked the line. It's definitely not rounded. Neither are any of the pins. The trigger/hammer have case hardening, it's just hard to see in the pic (iPhone).

Then I would side with that being the original finish.

In any event, it's a nice old revolver to have in the family.

 

[mikepriwer]

It would help if the grips were removed, and you posted a picture of each side of the
grip frame, so that we can what, if anything , is stamped there. Also, with the
cylinder open, examine the flat area on this underside of tbe barrel, and report to us
exactly what is stamped, along its entire length.

Mike Priwer

 

[handejector]

I did not read all the posts- just got tired of all the speculation and bad info. So forgive me if already answered.

You have a 38 M&P made after 1922(Made in USA appears) and before 1927(mushroom knob goes away).
I am 98% certain it wears the original nickel.
The pearl grips are most likely aftermarket, but were common and popular in that era.

 

[Oyeboteb]

I think the Nickel looks wonderful being ever so slightly frosted.

I hate seeing such Honest old Finishes 'shined' up to loose all ( "all" ) of their honesty and character.

It takes a very long time for Nickel, when left sitting somewhere, un-used, not handled, to acquire that lovely soft hint of 'frost'.

Am I alone in finding this beautful?

I hope not..!!

I'd Lube the innards well, REAL well, and leave the finish alone if it was me.

Anyway, lovely old "M&P" PigOPs!

Post an image showing the Ejector 'Star' in the rear of the Cylinder ( I think it should be 'Blue' if this is a Factory Nickel Revolver ).

 

[glowe]

I think the Nickel looks wonderful being ever so slightly frosted.

I hate seeing such Honest old Finishes 'shined' up to loose all ( "all" ) of their honesty and character.

It takes a very long time for Nickel, when left sitting somewhere, un-used, not handled, to acquire that lovely soft hint of 'frost'.

Since the owner has no intention of selling the gun, I agree that the finish has a nice look. If you were going sell the gun, I think frosted nickel is a turn-off to many buyers, since many equate frosted nickel as an obvious sign of a less than perfect refinish. I think prices would be less in that condition than a properly polished original sale. Afterall, you are only bringing the finish back to what it was earlier in its life.