Seeking opinions on tumbling rounds

[tronboy]

Hello, Everyone..

I have a question about some tumbling rounds, and hopefully someone here can point me in the right direction. I recently purchased 1000 rounds of 38 spl ammo from a remanufacturer that shall remain nameless until I fully resolve this issue. I got these rounds as target rounds (jacketed RNFP), and took them to the range to try them out. I was a little surprised by what I saw with the elongated tears in the targets (picture attached). It took a minute to figure out what was going on because I've never had this happen before. I shot these rounds in two different revolvers, and I observed tumbling with each. Granted, the revolvers are both pre-model 36's. One has a 2" barrel (Chief's Special snubby) and the other has the 3" barrel. They were both family guns bought new, the 3" barrel revolver has far fewer rounds put through it as compared to the 2" (like less than half the number of rounds as the 3" revolver sat for 15 years or so without ever being fired).

At the same time I shot the tumbling rounds, I also shot another manufacturer's round (JHP-XTP) through both revolvers and never saw a tumble through 50 shots. I switched back to the suspect round and observed the tumbling again in about 1-2 rounds out of every 10. Over this past summer, I've also shot 2 other manufacturers through those revolvers and never observed tumbling.

I inspected the suspect rounds and observed some flat spots, dents, and gouges on the jacket (typical pictures attached). I have not abused the ammo and I took the pictures of a couple of random rounds that I just pulled out of the box.

The remanufacturer of the suspect rounds is blaming the old revolvers on the tumbling. I have no direct experience with reloading and purchasing plain bullets for loading, but I think that the deformations in the bullets are most likely the problem and am seeking some feedback from the forum. I want to give the remanufacturer (small outfit) every benefit to make good on the purchase, and I want to make really sure that I've identified the issue before I force the issue. I think at best the ammunition is low quality, at worst I think the deformations are the cause of the tumbling. Your opinions are appreciated. I haven't figured out how to get a good picture of the barrels so all I have for now is pictures of the rounds. I could possibly rent a 357 or 38 spl at the range to eliminate my older revovlers, but I've never had this issue before and the tumbling appears to be limited to the suspect rounds anyway. Opinions welcome...

 

[m1gunner]

Pull a bullet and mic it.

Just looking at the 2 rounds in your pics, QC appears somewhat lacking. One round has a light crimp, the other shows less to no crimp.

What loading are these rounds?

I have read of folks that couldn't get plated bullets to shoot well out of certain guns.

 

[Harrison]

Are these plated rounds? Some plated rounds have a thin poorly attached plating and will shed their jackets then tumble. My 40 S&W limited gun shoots 180gr lead truncated cone bullets like a house afire. I bought 1000 rounds of basically the same bullet, but plated, and I had bullets going sideways at 10 yards, at 20 yards I was lucky to even be able to hit a standard IPSC target, with maybe 2 rounds out of 10. I was loading to avg. 910 fps (by chrono). These rounds did the same thing through a friends 40 S&W. I had to down load the bullets to below 800 fps, and use no crimp whatsoever, before the bullets would quit shedding their plated jackets. I still have about 800 of them left. I don't shoot plated bullets anymore. Besides, the plated ones don't seem that much cheaper than bulk jacketed.

 

[SMSgt]

Not much in the way of quality there. I'd pull one and mic it. 9mm bullet in .38 case? That could make it tumble.

You might just want to write this one off as a lesson learned and shop elsewhere.

 

[JayDubya]

As an alternative source of reloaded ammunition, I recommend Mastercast (www.mastercast.net). I have fired off many thousands (stopped counting) of their .38sp and 9x19 range loads without a single problem. I save a bundle by sending them my spent brass (same count and type) in USPS Priority Mail boxes, 2k per $10 box.

Oh! I tried 500 of their .38sp a 100gr WC that is almost as puny as .22 in sound and recoil. From my snubby, it tended to tear inch-long strips out of some targets at five yards. Not tumbling, just "some of y'all come along." My choice is the 148gr LWC. Cuts nice round holes.

Cordially, Jack

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

That looks like AMERC (american) ammo. If so most of what they produce is substandard.

 

[Fkimble]

The bullets looks a little short even though you can see the crimp area on the bullet. And a very round nose. Just don't look right from the pics. If they are very light loads then firing them in those short barrels they may not be stabilizing.

 

[tronboy]

Thanks for all the feedback so far. The ammo is not from AMERC. I want to give the people a chance to do the right thing in this situation before I do all the things you do to advertise low quality and no support.

Their web site boasts of their quality, customer service, and unconditional warranty for any legitimate reason. I've sent them the same pictures and information (plus a little more) that I posted here. Luckily I paid the premium with them and ordered the rounds on credit card. There is too much money in the ammo to just accept it. I'm willing to work with them on it, but if they don't work with me then I'll just go another route to force the return. I hate to do it, but I'm giving them a chance. I've even offered to ship some sample rounds back for test firing, and they won't cooperate. These guys have been around for a while, but if they are starting to pull this stuff they won't be around much longer.

Thanks again.

 

[s&wchad]

I'm not so sure those elongated holes are caused by bullet instability. Was your target backed with cardboard, or simply hung from a clip? It's common for lower velocity flat points or wadcutters to tear thin targets if they're unsupported.


If your targets were backed… never mind!

 

[tronboy]

It's a good point that you make about the targets being backed. In this case the targets were not backed. So it's *possible* that these particular suspect rounds are tearing the target occasionally whereas the other 3 manufacturers I've shot always punch clean. If this is the case, this would be the only round (38 spl or other calibers that I shoot) that is not punching clean on these targets. I have shot new flat noses (Remington) through the same revolvers that punch clean. I guess the only way to know for sure is to back the target next time.

 

[tronboy]

Despite the monsoon that has settled on Atlanta this afternoon, I made it to the range to retest the suspect rounds using a cardboard backed target.

It looks as though the suspect rounds are truly tumbling. I've attached a picture of the backed target. There were 3 tumblers on this target. Two of them are in the black, so I started shooting the white until I got one that was pretty visible.

The second target was shot using retail ammo (Remington MC's). I did not see any issues with this ammo, and the target was not backed during the test.

At this point I feel comfortable that the suspect rounds are really tumbling and that the problem is isolated to this one supplier. I will post an update on how things go in trying to work this out.

 

[JohnnieB]

At this point I feel comfortable that the suspect rounds are really tumbling and that the problem is isolated to this one supplier.

First of all - Welcome to the forum.

I saw dents in the bullets you took pictures of. That can cause instability.
In my own .38Spl shooting, I've noticed it doesn't take much of a ding to cause the POI to change considerably.

Also, the crimps appear to be inconsistant (one minimal, one non-existant) in the photos.
If you have, or know someone that has, a Lee "Factory Crimp Die", run a few of these rounds through it and give them another test.


I see you are in Georgia. These guys are located just to the west of Atlanta, so you might live close enough for you to pick up in person and save shipping costs.

Georgia Arms - AMMUNITION


I'm not affifiated with them in any way, but they put out some good stuff and I've put a couple thousand of their .38s downrange without anything to complain about.
Or at least, not anything that was fault of the ammo or Gun.

Looking forward to your resolution of this problem,

John

 

[tronboy]

Thanks for the feedback.

I have run across Georgia Arms and Ammo. The indoor range that I go to stocks their ammo and I looked them up. Never shot their stuff though.

I did get some 38 spl JHP-XTP rounds from CCC Ammo as a comparison to this suspect ammo and the CCC Ammo rounds shoot fine. 100 rounds or so with no tumbles.

I may make a new post summarizing this, but I did get in touch with the supplier of the suspect rounds (Precision Cartridge, Inc.), and they are taking the rounds back for a refund. As you might imagine, the owner was not happy and immediately hung up on me when he agreed to take them back. I thought this was uncalled for as I was very calm (but direct) with him about the problem I was having and walked him through everything I had done. Emotions take over at times I guess. Either way, he is honoring his guarantee at this point. I've not yet received the refund as the whole thing is still in progress. I will post any follow-ups if there are issues.

I have heard pretty good things about the Precision Cartridge folks, and I've seen some of their ammo before (granted, made a few years ago). So I was suprised when I saw the quality of the rounds and the tumbling. Precision Cartridge stated they had made over 100k rounds of what I ordered with no tumbling reports. I hated to break his record for the year, but it happens.

Thanks to the forum for all of the suggestions and help.

 

[sw282]

si--------

 

[David Sinko]

Sometimes this is just the nature of the beast with revolvers that have very short barrels. My 2" Model 64 simply will not stabilize some bullets. It has happened with plated, jacketed and cast and at different velocities. Sometimes a bullet that won't stabilize needs a velocity increase and then accuracy is outstanding. Actually, now that I think about it, an increase in velocity usually DOES solve these problems for me. I have one plated FP bullet that is worthless at anything other than +P+ pressures, and then suddenly it becomes the most accurate bullet I have tried. I wouldn't condemn the manufacturer because one load does not perform well in 2" and 3" barrels. Let somebody try some in a 6" barrel and see what happens. You might be surprised.

Dave Sinko