Self defence Hard cast or JHP

[Wolf13]

I have revolvers, I like to carry a S&W M 60 pro with a 3 inch barrel. I like to practice with hard cast bullets if I set my sights for them, then same weight JHP do not shoot to the same POI as the hard cast. Does any body use hard cast as their self defence or carry ammo. I am using semi wad cutter and TC bullets.

 

[tops]

I use hard cast SWCs for plinking, target, offense and defense for .38 Spec, .357 Mag., .44 Spec., .44 Mag. and .45 ACP. Larry

 

[arjay]

I use hard cast for everything,but defensive loads.I go with factory for that.

 

[Rastoff]

There's no reason not to use hard cast for self defense.

There's also no reason a bullet of the same mass won't shoot to the same POI. Are you sure you're using the same loading data for the JHP?

We are talking about pistols and distances less than 15 yards, right? If you're within 2", you're good to go for self defense. If this were 100 yard bench rest shooting then it would matter, but not for self defense.

 

[alwslate]

In a short barrel defensive revolver hard cast SWCs or WCs are the way to go in my opinion. Good penetration and higher velocity at
standard pressure if using handloads.

 

[S&W45Colt]

I have yet to see a credible firearms expert recommend hard cast bullets for SD in the last decade, unless it's for a mouse gun. Bullet Technology have made HP's performance consistent and dependable.

 

[tops]

I have yet to see a credible firearms expert recommend hard cast bullets for SD in the last decade, unless it's for a mouse gun. Bullet Technology have made HP's performance consistent and dependable.

If they would recommend SWCs how would they sell all the new wonder bullets? How long would it take for the bullet makers to blacklist them? I am not a credible firearms expert but I have never saw the need to shoot a block of jello so I don't care how a bullet performs in jello. Jello blocks are consistent but animals have muscle, fat, bones and liquid. In the past 48 years I have shot a lot of wood and metal (cover) and a lot of animals and I have reached my own conclusions that hard SWCs are hard to beat. Larry

 

[Kanewpadle]

I have revolvers, I like to carry a S&W M 60 pro with a 3 inch barrel. I like to practice with hard cast bullets if I set my sights for them, then same weight JHP do not shoot to the same POI as the hard cast. Does any body use hard cast as their self defence or carry ammo. I am using semi wad cutter and TC bullets.

This discussion has been discussed at length many times on many gun forums. And the consensus is almost always the same. Personal opinion is what counts. Yours. Not ours.

Nobody can come up with documented facts either way.

I personally see no need to carry handloads for self defense. But I can understand why someone would want to. Handloads for self defense may eventually become a thing of the past because of the huge advancements is bullet technology.

Those that roll their own do so for several reasons. Whatever your reasons are, as long as you are comfortable and confident with your decision, go for it.

Self defense ammo selection is just another personal decision the same as choosing a gun, holster etc. Choose these things wisely because it's all on you.

 

[Protected One]

+1^^^ Nothing more to add.

 

[Doug M.]

As a rule, the best work on bullet technology has been done in the major auto pistol service calibers (9/357sig/40/45acp). In those calibers, even in a revolver, I stick with one of Doc Roberts' recommended loads. in .38 and .41, WC and SWC respectively as a rule. I do have a bunch of Gold Dot SB for my .357s and use GD in my .44 (M296).

A good SWC in most calibers is likely to perform well enough, but the big variable is always placement. You also have to remember that handgun rounds are poor choices for SD compared to a good rifle, and that the pistol is carried simply because it is more convenient than a long gun. Get a good knowledge of human anatomy in terms of where you need to hit an assailant, and be prepared to shoot until you perceive them losing the ability continue the assault. It might be 1 shot, but could easily be ... 5, or 8.

 

[S&W45Colt]

If they would recommend SWCs how would they sell all the new wonder bullets? How long would it take for the bullet makers to blacklist them? I am not a credible firearms expert but I have never saw the need to shoot a block of jello so I don't care how a bullet performs in jello. Jello blocks are consistent but animals have muscle, fat, bones and liquid. In the past 48 years I have shot a lot of wood and metal (cover) and a lot of animals and I have reached my own conclusions that hard SWCs are hard to beat. Larry

A DA would have no issue proving the dangers of hard cast over penetration and the fact it's been well documented and discussed. The human body that of game are not the same. I've seen plenty of deer the hard cast round passed clean through, but that's not a concern on game, with people in a SD situation, it's not the same thing.

As for your disbelief in the virtues of FBI testing protocols, the FBI established and tested them, not Gun Magazines. If you want to say their findings were not valid, that's your prerogative. There are plenty of street results on multiple SD rounds backing up the FBI's findings. Personally, I'll go with the FBI's findings, police dept stats and what I've seen myself, I favor technological advancement.

Carry what you want, it doesn't effect me either way. You have to be comfortable with you carry.

JMO, YMMV.

 

[walkin' trails]

I have revolvers, I like to carry a S&W M 60 pro with a 3 inch barrel. I like to practice with hard cast bullets if I set my sights for them, then same weight JHP do not shoot to the same POI as the hard cast. Does any body use hard cast as their self defence or carry ammo. I am using semi wad cutter and TC bullets.

I would recommend that you fire some hard cast bullets and see where they impact compared to whatever hollow point defensive round you're carrying. While some of the lighter, high velocity SD rounds tend to shoot wider groups and/or impact low (for example), at most SD situation distances, I don't think there would be much of an issue. My required duty load for a 5-shot is a 147 grain +P+ HP; I practice with 148 grain WC and 158 gr. SWCHP. I don't seem much of any difference in impact although the WC avails the tightest groups (recoil plays its part). Besides, my 5-shot is fixed-sight. It sounds like you have adjustable sights, and could, with the click of an adjustment screw or two, note how many clicks you have to adjust your sights to shoot practice ammo and how many clicks you have to return to your SD ammo zero.

On this forum, I've seen a number of recommendations for either the former FBI 158 gr. SWCHP +P (and Remington's offering seems to have the edge), or the new Speer Gold Dot 135 gr. for short barreled revolvers. The 158s tend to impact point of aim for fixed-sight revolvers. The Speers, I've heard tend to impact four inches low (but I don't know at what distance this become apparent). I used to shoot magnums out of a model 60, and noted that they tended to impact low, but that may have had something to do with me dipping. The .38s I fired after a cylinder of magnums, even +P+ shot more dead on probably because of the lesser recoil. I will try the Speers one of these days when I can find them. If I don't like them, I will revert to the SWCHPs when retirement comes around.

While we still have a legal system that has the capacity for prosecutors and/or civil attorneys to nitpick and demonize seemingly non-relative issues that occur during the lawful use of self defense, it just makes sense to use a factory SD load.

 

[Hapworth]

I am not a credible firearms expert but I have never saw the need to shoot a block of jello so I don't care how a bullet performs in jello. Jello blocks are consistent but animals have muscle, fat, bones and liquid. In the past 48 years I have shot a lot of wood and metal (cover) and a lot of animals and I have reached my own conclusions that hard SWCs are hard to beat. Larry

I am not a credible firearms expert, either, and have never seen the need to shoot wood -- but if I did, and used a variety of loads against the same size, kind and cut of wood, in controlled settings, repeatedly, and kept meticulous notes...I'd have something meaningful to say about how those different loads compared.

Final? No -- but who ever claimed that? Meaningful? Yep.

 

[Rastoff]

Nobody can come up with documented facts either way.

Oh, there's plenty of documented facts out there. The problem is that we all have prejudices one way or another.

Some of those facts are:
Every caliber is dangerous and one shot stops have been seen with .45 all the way down to .22LR rounds.
Regular hardball ammo has killed more people than any other bullet shape.

"9mm JHP might expand, but .45ACP won't get smaller." -Col Jeff Cooper

The point here is that shot placement vastly outweighs anything anyone can say about bullet configuration. Use what you're comfortable with. You will shoot that round better under stress than anything else.

 

[cmort666]

If I were planning to defend myself from white tail deer, I'd use hard cast lead.

For people, it's lead semi-wadcutter hollow points or JHPs.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If I were planning to defend myself from white tail deer, I'd use hard cast lead.

For people, it's lead semi-wadcutter hollow points or JHPs.

Me too. But I'm not about to tell someone what they should use for self defense. We all have to make choices.

 

[Wolf13]

I like using 125 gr JHP in the M 60. I load it in front of 14 grs of 2400 I can load the same powder in behind a 125 gr hard cast and its poi is about 1 inch higher than the jhp bullet. In my Dan Wesson 357 mag with a 6 inch barrel (not a carry gun) with 140 JHP in front of 16.5 grs of 2400 the 140 gr hard cast shoots 2 inches higher 17 grs of 2400 with the JHP shoots to the same poi. I will be going with the JHP only in the M 60 as I do not shoot it as much as I do my DW. Thanks for all the replys as it has given me some things to think about.

 

[AZretired]

I prefer the Remington or Federal version of the +P LSWCHP as it's proven and hits where I aim. I recently picked up a couple boxes of both. The federals being of the Nyclad version.

That said I would not hesitate to use cast lead SWC bullets for self defense should I need to. The only real issue is over penetration and even the factory +P LSWCHP have been known to fail to expand and exit.

 

[OLDFED]

Good points here...

...but I prefer factory ammo because if I ever have to shoot a human being, I'd prefer to have the factory's lawyers argue the cartridge issue. I won't have enough time or money if I use one of my own loads. It's been said before...carry what the police carry.

 

[cochise]

I have revolvers, I like to carry a S&W M 60 pro with a 3 inch barrel. I like to practice with hard cast bullets if I set my sights for them, then same weight JHP do not shoot to the same POI as the hard cast. Does any body use hard cast as their self defence or carry ammo. I am using semi wad cutter and TC bullets.

Shoot what is most accurate in your gun and the load you are most ccnfident.