Selling firearms F2F

[shil]

Pennsylvania: As far as I know, private sales of long guns are ok. Private sales of handguns are not ok and, to be lawful, must be made through an FFL and NICS. So, if parading through a gun show with an AR15 having a "for sale" sign stuck in the barrel slung over your shoulder, you may want to be careful to whom you are selling?

 

[Muss Muggins]

That’s not entirely true. FFLs have the ability to check the serial number of a firearm against a list of stolen firearms with the local police.

IIRC only 13 states require reporting of lost or stolen guns, but stolen guns can be reported in all 50 states.

Maybe in NC. My FFL discusses this often. I have a difficult time believing that a local PD maintains a "list of stolen guns," which you have to admit is useless if the gun was stolen in a different zip code. They certainly won't run the serial number thru NCIC as a matter of habit . . .

 

[Muss Muggins]

I don't give the buyer the bill of sale. I keep it. They get a receipt from a Staples receipt book. If they want a copy of the bill of sale, I text them a picture. A face to face without a bill of sale is perfectly legal in Missouri, and that is following the LAW. The bill of sale is for my protection, not the buyer's . . .

This is why I find it to be a horrendous idea to agree to any "bill of sale" to a private party.

For some reason, gun owners believe that a bill of sale is some magic talisman that can/will absolve them of blame for any future nefarious activity. In reality, it is some hand written note, not involving any licensed dealer, NOT notarized, not official or even approaching official.

What it truly is, is two fold:

1) silly exercise that makes someone believe there is value where none exists

2) literally a treasure map that walks off and is now in the possession of some random person who might have a tweaker son with tweaker friends who now has literally the address of someone who almost surely has guns in their home.

I don't believe in magic fairy dust. A bill of sale that isn't notarized and doesn't involve a Federally licensed dealer is not only of zero value, it's a liability and I won't participate.

You'll also notice that the folks who get most upset at this opinion are the ones who believe in the magic fairy dust.

I follow the LAW, and I follow the law 100% of the time. Bill of sale (in duplicate, -HA-) is not the law in Ohio, never has been and shame on anyone who sells this nonsense as if it is the law. This is a gun forum, not a forum for used car salesmen or carnival barkers.

 

[steelslaver]

Keeping some record of where the gun went is a good practice. Even a sale through an FFL. They CAN NOT track a gun sale just because it went through an FFL, That record of sale remains in the FFL holders book. If you can not recall the FFL used in a sale 10-30 years ago it becomes almost as much of a dead end as no paper trail what so ever. There is absolutely no law saying I have to remember of retain that information.The idea that they could charge me with a crime soley based on finding a gun I owned at one time would be unlikely in this state. Mostly I buy older used guns and once a gun leaves the first FFL it went to tracking it down from there it becomes more difficult. They would need to find the first owner and how he disposed of it, then follow it through every owner it ever had. I bet they would have a hard time tracing most 25 year old revolvers to their current owner. I just traded a model 629-1 to fellow black powder cartridge shooter with an FFL for an 45-70 Italian Sharps. My wife pays no attention to such stuff. If anything happens to me she or the government would have no idea where it went. I guess they could go through the books of all 25 FFL holders within 10 miles of my location in hopes that one was involved. LOL. Here guns are traded just like hammers. Go to a farm or estate auction and there will be guns. The auctioneer is only establishing the price, any sale and transfer is between owner and buyer. I have bought, traded and sold guns since I was in my 20s. Where my first Ruger Blackhawk , security 6s and others went is anyone guess. I traded a Ruger mini 14 to a brother, his X ended up with it and if you talked to her you would find out all kinds of completely irrelevant information, but probably not where the gun went. Her mouth never stops moving but not much actually gets said.

 

[ladder13]

I have sold FTF. Gun advertised, buyer sends message, tell him to call me (got his number), meet at a busy place (no one runs in horror in NC), take a look at his NCDL and CHP ( all that is required for proof of eligibility) while making mental note of full name and address for my record, DONE.

 

[BB57]

Maybe in NC. My FFL discusses this often. I have a difficult time believing that a local PD maintains a "list of stolen guns," which you have to admit is useless if the gun was stolen in a different zip code. They certainly won't run the serial number thru NCIC as a matter of habit . . .

The PD, SO, etc receive the reports and then forward them to the data base maintained by the FBI’s NCIC. I’m pretty sure you knew that.

Here at least, the PD and SO maintain a local hot sheet and then also check a serial number against the federal data base when asked by an FFL or a private citizen with a legitimate interest in a firearm they own or are considering purchasing.

——

The flaw in the system is that only law enforcement agencies can query the federal data base. It’s not in keeping with the concept of transparency and it requires a local agency be willing to run queries for FFLs.

For example, anyone can search for the the owner of an aircraft, as well as its ownership history and accident history via the N number or serial number and the FAA data base. I do that, and request a CD of all of the STCs and 337s that have been reported to the FAA for the aircraft in question anytime I am interested in buying an aircraft.

 

[steelslaver]

I do not see a problem with a data base of stolen firearms being available to the public. But, it would need more than just serial numbers. There could well be duplicate numbers A Taurus 357 and a .old Colt single action could share the same number. At one time S&W could have stamped a 44 special and a 38 special with the same number.

But, I also bet that a lot of gun owners would not be able to report the serial number of a stolen gun, and some would not ever know where it was purchased. I have not got a clue as to where several guns I inherited were purchased. I was also given a 22 pistol and from a woman years ago.

I myself have a note book that has handguns listed by caliber, then serial number then description and a rough value. Rifles and shotguns the same way. No purchase history is given, but any work by me is. But, it is so that if anything happens to me my wife has a clue as to what is there and value. I have already explained how values can vary with time, about how gun stores operate etc. While I don't have a stack of registered magnums when you add them all up there is enough for a few hamburgers and some beans. Ganna be an interesting estate sale boys. Guns tools, reloading equipment camping gear, boats. Bummer that I won't be able to go to it. LOL

 

[biku324]

It works differently in other places.

Local kids at Abdullahi Nur rickety stall on the edge of Bakara... News Photo - Getty Images

 

[BB57]

But, I also bet that a lot of gun owners would not be able to report the serial number of a stolen gun, and some would not ever know where it was purchased.

It’s pretty much a given that a serial number date base needs to include type, make and model of the firearm.

A surprising number of FFLs don’t know how to properly record or report a serial number.

Take for example the average P.38. They are all uniquely identified but for any made after October 1940 fully identifying one requires:
- the manufacturer code (CYQ, BYF, AC);
- the two digit year (40, 41, 42, 43, 44, or 45);
- the alphabetical prefix (a through z, excluding q); and
- the 4 digit serial number 0001 through 9999).

It could be recorded as something like “CYQ43b4395. However it’s more likely to be recorded as a “Walther” rather than “Spreewerk” and “b4395”. The problem of course is that there are a number of “b4395” P.38s, one for each year where that letter was used by Walther (5), Mauser (2) and Spreewerk (2) and calling them all “Walther” pistols brings all 9 pistols potentially into play.

The ATF was never exactly helpful in requiring FFLs to capture all the coded information needed to make the serial numbers unique. The end result was requiring importers to put a unique serial number on each of the pistols they import - even those where the serials were unique as stamped by the manufacturer.

Which means those firearms now have two serial numbers and the owner would have to realize which one is the legal serial number here in the US.

 

[steelslaver]

I have twice had FFL write down an assembly number from the yoke cut of early S&W revolvers. Both times they were Pawn shops and the guns came intro the shop and went into their book under that number. If they had ever been reported as stolen under the actual serial number they would not show, If a gun was reported stolen and the owner reports the assembly number as serial number, they would never find it and if by chance some guy had a gun hats serial number matched the assembly number they might have a problem