That's very clear.....
Make's perfect sense. Don't know why I couldn't visualize it. Thanks!
Make's perfect sense. Don't know why I couldn't visualize it. Thanks!
Semi-Auto-- Load 1 in the Chamber??
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Frank Black
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Always. Full mag capacity (whatever it is), PLUS one in the chamber.
luvsmiths
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And I never heard an "after action interview" ( whatever that is) where a survivor said "If only I had one more"........
OldSmithCollector
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I cant tell if it is an opposition to carrying a round in the chamber or just semantics.
Any amount of bullets required for someone to become a "survivor" of a gun battle as opposed to a casualty is the exact right amount of bullets, in my very humble opinion. I respectfully submit for consideration, since that number is not always the same number from case to case, maybe we should just consider from the survivors point of view, whatever number it took to become a survivor of the battle instead of dead, what if they had had one bullet less?
I'll take all I can get.
Any amount of bullets required for someone to become a "survivor" of a gun battle as opposed to a casualty is the exact right amount of bullets, in my very humble opinion. I respectfully submit for consideration, since that number is not always the same number from case to case, maybe we should just consider from the survivors point of view, whatever number it took to become a survivor of the battle instead of dead, what if they had had one bullet less?
I'll take all I can get.
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Right amount
We speak often about caliber and magazine capacity, about trigger mechanics and feed operation on every forum and in every gun magazine I know of since the 1970's when I started reading them. It certainly does no harm, as long as the important issues are not neglected. But I have noticed in my 37 years of concealed carry, that these concerns never carry weight in the news reports. Often you never know what caliber was used or even what type of pistol was used by the successful or unsuccessful defender. For example...
I had read several dozens of reports about Eli Dicken and his successful defense of shoppers at the Greenwood Mall, Indiana in July last year, before I finally learned that he used a Glock 9mm. Over on the Glock Forum they still cannot say which model of Glock he used. They know he shot 10 rounds from 40 yards with 8 hits in 15 seconds.
I think he shot 2 rounds supported against a column from forty yards with one hit and then advanced on his enemy and fired several more at more than half that distance unsupported, and advancing his last few were pretty close. If caliber and magazine capacity were as important as they seem to be in our arguments here, should not that be our first and most important question about any incident? Somehow, we instinctively know that it was Dicken's skill and character that saved countless lives that day, never mind the number of rounds.
Commitment to protect.
Hours of training and preparation under his Grandpa.
Cool courage under fire.
Marksmanship.
Tactics.
Thank you, God, that such men as Elisjsha Dicken walk among us.
These are the names of the three from that day who no longer walk with us:
Pedro Pineda, 56, and his wife,
Rosa Mirian Rivera de Pineda, 37, both from Indianapolis,
and Victor Gomez, 30.
May we walk with them in white. Rev. 3:4.
We speak often about caliber and magazine capacity, about trigger mechanics and feed operation on every forum and in every gun magazine I know of since the 1970's when I started reading them. It certainly does no harm, as long as the important issues are not neglected. But I have noticed in my 37 years of concealed carry, that these concerns never carry weight in the news reports. Often you never know what caliber was used or even what type of pistol was used by the successful or unsuccessful defender. For example...
I had read several dozens of reports about Eli Dicken and his successful defense of shoppers at the Greenwood Mall, Indiana in July last year, before I finally learned that he used a Glock 9mm. Over on the Glock Forum they still cannot say which model of Glock he used. They know he shot 10 rounds from 40 yards with 8 hits in 15 seconds.
I think he shot 2 rounds supported against a column from forty yards with one hit and then advanced on his enemy and fired several more at more than half that distance unsupported, and advancing his last few were pretty close. If caliber and magazine capacity were as important as they seem to be in our arguments here, should not that be our first and most important question about any incident? Somehow, we instinctively know that it was Dicken's skill and character that saved countless lives that day, never mind the number of rounds.
Commitment to protect.
Hours of training and preparation under his Grandpa.
Cool courage under fire.
Marksmanship.
Tactics.
Thank you, God, that such men as Elisjsha Dicken walk among us.
These are the names of the three from that day who no longer walk with us:
Pedro Pineda, 56, and his wife,
Rosa Mirian Rivera de Pineda, 37, both from Indianapolis,
and Victor Gomez, 30.
May we walk with them in white. Rev. 3:4.
OldSmithCollector
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Amen to that.
Agreed, survival is certainly an overall combination of multiple factors.
When I think though in the spirit of this specific question about whether or not to carry with a round in the chamber, I do know people who refuse because of a fear of 'something', and if some tragic event were to befall them I worry about the additional time it might take under duress & adrenaline to chamber a round just to prepare to respond to a threat. I question if they have some fear at all if it is wise to carry at all... but Im not sure which is worse.
I think in terms of calibers and loads the FBI & LEO data gives us so many data points to review we dont need to look any farther. I think round count falls more under practical application for the civilian sector, where we need to take into account the psychological and behavioral aspects of everyday folks and how shootings play out, and a lot of that data is available if you dig a bit in the right places. In truth most folks really dont go to the range every day or find ourselves in stressful, dangerous situations.
Studying the last 15-20 years of data on civilian fire fights shows a few interesting statistical facts I think all new or novice defensive carry folks should keep in mind:
1) no one really ever gets opportunity to use a BUG or reload. The capacity in your hand when it starts is what will take you through to the end 99.9% of the time.
2) Nothing counts more than accuracy & shot placement.
3) at least the first 3-4 shots are almost always fired in a panic and not aimed (see note #2 above)
4) most engagements start in surprisingly close-quarters
5) civilian firefights seldom last more than 1 minute, often they are only seconds.
It goes without saying that nothing replaces practice and staying calm, but past that it seems to me that the mechanical device should to be one that is ALWAYS on your person in easy reach, easy for you to control for followup, something you are comfortable & accurate with, and should contain as many rounds as possible with the quickest deployment you can reasonably manage.
and practice, practice, practice. The world has become a very dangerous place over the last 25 years, in my opinion.
Agreed, survival is certainly an overall combination of multiple factors.
When I think though in the spirit of this specific question about whether or not to carry with a round in the chamber, I do know people who refuse because of a fear of 'something', and if some tragic event were to befall them I worry about the additional time it might take under duress & adrenaline to chamber a round just to prepare to respond to a threat. I question if they have some fear at all if it is wise to carry at all... but Im not sure which is worse.
I think in terms of calibers and loads the FBI & LEO data gives us so many data points to review we dont need to look any farther. I think round count falls more under practical application for the civilian sector, where we need to take into account the psychological and behavioral aspects of everyday folks and how shootings play out, and a lot of that data is available if you dig a bit in the right places. In truth most folks really dont go to the range every day or find ourselves in stressful, dangerous situations.
Studying the last 15-20 years of data on civilian fire fights shows a few interesting statistical facts I think all new or novice defensive carry folks should keep in mind:
1) no one really ever gets opportunity to use a BUG or reload. The capacity in your hand when it starts is what will take you through to the end 99.9% of the time.
2) Nothing counts more than accuracy & shot placement.
3) at least the first 3-4 shots are almost always fired in a panic and not aimed (see note #2 above)
4) most engagements start in surprisingly close-quarters
5) civilian firefights seldom last more than 1 minute, often they are only seconds.
It goes without saying that nothing replaces practice and staying calm, but past that it seems to me that the mechanical device should to be one that is ALWAYS on your person in easy reach, easy for you to control for followup, something you are comfortable & accurate with, and should contain as many rounds as possible with the quickest deployment you can reasonably manage.
and practice, practice, practice. The world has become a very dangerous place over the last 25 years, in my opinion.
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And Your Two hands
Over on Active Self Protection YouTube Channel the consensus is clearly demonstrated and taught by the host John Correia. It is very sad to watch someone die simply because he never got to rack the slide. You said time, I say space. (It's the same thing sort of.) You cannot chamber a round while one hand is busy resisting your assailant!
It is not correct IMHO to absolutely condemn the practice. Some fighters are very skilled and competent with empty hands and improvised weapons. Their plan will be using those skills to create time and space to employ the handgun.
Over on Active Self Protection YouTube Channel the consensus is clearly demonstrated and taught by the host John Correia. It is very sad to watch someone die simply because he never got to rack the slide. You said time, I say space. (It's the same thing sort of.) You cannot chamber a round while one hand is busy resisting your assailant!
It is not correct IMHO to absolutely condemn the practice. Some fighters are very skilled and competent with empty hands and improvised weapons. Their plan will be using those skills to create time and space to employ the handgun.
With semi-auto pistols, I always load out of the magazine.
I understand that this conversation is about pistols. However, it is equally important to know about how your rifle works. You can load rounds into the chamber of a Remington 700 until the cows come home. You must NOT with a Mauser '98. Some instruction manuals say that you normally load out of the magazine but can, on occasion, drop one in the chamber and allow the extractor to jump over the rim. If you have a Winchester Model 70, it depends on when it was made …
I understand that this conversation is about pistols. However, it is equally important to know about how your rifle works. You can load rounds into the chamber of a Remington 700 until the cows come home. You must NOT with a Mauser '98. Some instruction manuals say that you normally load out of the magazine but can, on occasion, drop one in the chamber and allow the extractor to jump over the rim. If you have a Winchester Model 70, it depends on when it was made …
OldSmithCollector
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I'm glad you said that.
I can honestly say that it never crossed my mind with rifles. I dont hunt, but I'll carry it when I am out on the mountain, but never with a round in the chamber. It is possible I could run into trouble out there as well, just feels different than being in the city I guess. I'll generally have a pistol on me as well, but my hands are full of rifle. Thanks for making that point. I'll need to do some research on my rifles.
I can honestly say that it never crossed my mind with rifles. I dont hunt, but I'll carry it when I am out on the mountain, but never with a round in the chamber. It is possible I could run into trouble out there as well, just feels different than being in the city I guess. I'll generally have a pistol on me as well, but my hands are full of rifle. Thanks for making that point. I'll need to do some research on my rifles.
Yes, push feed vs controlled feed. Bolts with the big claw extractor on the exterior of the bolt like the Mauser are controlled feed and the extractor does not do well if you try to push it over a chambered round. Push feed bolts are easier and cheaper to manufacture and are designed to slip over the rim of a chambered round.
In a 1911, always load from mag, the extractor isn't spring loaded and can be damaged by excessive loading by dropping in chamber. Ask me how I know.
However, lots of other guns have spring loaded extractors that are fine to do so. Knowing the issues with the 1911, I have made the habit of loading all guns from the mag.
Rosewood
However, lots of other guns have spring loaded extractors that are fine to do so. Knowing the issues with the 1911, I have made the habit of loading all guns from the mag.
Rosewood
I am a FIRM believer in this philosophy. I own several firearms, all very good quality and I use them to punch holes in paper but every firearm I own could be used to defend my life if necessary.
One more tale on the "Barney bullet." One of my contemporaries was a Division Sergeant Major during the invasion of Iraq twenty years ago. He reflated how he almost shot his driver when he chambered his "Barney bullet," inserted a full magazine and rifle went off when he hit the bolt release.
He may have had thirty tears of "experience" with an M16 series rifle but was clueless about the mechanics. Since the rifle has a floating firing pin, inertia causes it to "hit" the primer when the round chambers. ( I had to remind him you can see the little "peck" mark if you remove the round without firing it.
What set up the accident, was a "Division SOP" that required the rifle be cleared before entering the vehicle. (Three guesses who the Daddy of that was.) He would catch the cleared round and pocket it. When he got out of the vehicle he'd drop that same round in the chamber
The subsequent re-chambering of that same Barney round however many times resulted in finally reaching that one "tap" that was enough to cause a slam-fire. He didn't shoot outside of "work." Never heard the lore about slow fire slamfires and Match ammo. A SLED was something used in the snow, not during a rifle match.
The first recall hearing the reference to the "Barney bullet" was during USPSA matches 40 years ago.
He may have had thirty tears of "experience" with an M16 series rifle but was clueless about the mechanics. Since the rifle has a floating firing pin, inertia causes it to "hit" the primer when the round chambers. ( I had to remind him you can see the little "peck" mark if you remove the round without firing it.
What set up the accident, was a "Division SOP" that required the rifle be cleared before entering the vehicle. (Three guesses who the Daddy of that was.) He would catch the cleared round and pocket it. When he got out of the vehicle he'd drop that same round in the chamber
The subsequent re-chambering of that same Barney round however many times resulted in finally reaching that one "tap" that was enough to cause a slam-fire. He didn't shoot outside of "work." Never heard the lore about slow fire slamfires and Match ammo. A SLED was something used in the snow, not during a rifle match.
The first recall hearing the reference to the "Barney bullet" was during USPSA matches 40 years ago.
OldSmithCollector
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That happened quite often when I was in. We had the A2 in the late 90's and you couldnt do anything with a group without someone slam-firing on accident when they thought it was empty. Amazing more people didnt get killed.
That's not a bad policy, and not just for AR-15s. A M14/M1A has a fairly violent loading cycle too. (That another rifle you shouldn't load directly into the chamber BTW) Some pistols are more prone to setback than others. 357 SIG cartridges have such a short neck I'd never chamber the same round twice for fear of setback.
For some reason my Les Baer 1911 chews up hollow point bullets. FMJ round nose and lead semi-wadcutters are fine, but some hollow points that gun just hates. I stopped using the Les Baer for nightstand duty because of this.
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