Serious court + warranty question on reloads

[Skeet 028]

I actually sat on a murder trial.. I was amazed that the defense attorney didn't blow me off the jury. Heck I worked with cops all the time. Now as to the jurors..Oy Vey..and I ain't even Jewish.. I honestly think we had an alternate that couldn't read!! The defense attorney made sure he had a couple of women on the jury that wouldn't have voted for the death penalty if he had killed their mother. The guy was without a doubt guilty and the vote for the death penalty was just that..10 to 2..it had to be unanimous of course. One of the women actually made a statement that if we gave him the death penalty his daughter wouldn't have a father any longer...like it would have been carried out in 6 months..more likely 25 years.. she was 3 and a half years old at trial date and he had seen his daughter one time. It took 6 weeks to find him guilty and sentence him..and it was an exhausting ordeal..not a joke. Many jurors are quite ...well...dumb is a good word..oh life without parole

 

[NicholasDM]

These are the kind of statements prosecuting attorney's love to hear. You've just provided evidence of depravity that as a minimum can be used to support a manslaughter conviction even if you are shooting in self defense. If forced into the position of using a firearm to defend yourself you want the ammo most likely to immediately stop the attack.

I humbly disagree. Some slimeball attorney could try to spin that in a negative light, but nobody with a shred of common sense would buy it and legally there is no support to turn what I said into a "See? This guy just wants to kill... Look at all the deadly ammo he made!" Defense will turn around and go "How deadly is a +P or +P+ Hydrashok round, or for that matter _any_ bullet, that is commercially available?"

If you are forced into a position of using a firearm against another human being, you obviously felt that life was in immediate danger and needed to stop an attack as quickly as possible. Having the most effective round possible within the confines of law (meaning no explosive or bi-metal rounds) accomplishes that.

Have you seen how horrendous solid copper bullets are? They expand to about the size of a golf ball and tears out fist fulls of meat. And they are commercially available. All I have to do is go to my local store and pay $50 for 20 of them.

 

[NicholasDM]

Glock says nothing about this in their warranty.

You are entirely correct, they do not specifically mention the reason for not firing reloads. It does however state in the owner's manual that they recommend against firing reloads. +P+ loads will specifically void your warranty and are not safe to use. At least that's what my partner's Glock 17 manual states.

Two logical reasons that I can see for this are;

A: Unsupported chamber, which is something virtually every auto-loading pistol has and I feel (no, this may NOT be fact, it is my opinion) that this is just something people have latched on to to have something to complain about. I don't see the exposure of less than 1mm more brass at the base of the case where it tends to be thicker, for an area of about 15-20% of the case's circumference, to be a specific issue unless you're loading very hot rounds or firing .40, which tends to be where the typical KB happens. The .40 seems to have real bad issues with cases bulging in that area. I admittedly don't know why it is this caliber specifically since I have little interest in it. My opinion is that if you're going bigger than 9mm and want a standard, non-niche caliber just go for the powder keg that is .45 and have a nice day.

B: Octagonal rifling, which fouls when using unjacketed or unplated bullets. Reloaders may inadvertently foul the barrel, get a squib and blow their hand off.

I'm not an expert on this stuff, so consider the above my opinion based on much reading, research and experience. I am always open to changing my opinions, being proven wrong, and accepting correct facts.

Take it with a grain of salt the size of the empire state building and educate yourself on the facts.

 

[shooter5112]

Care to elaborate?

The lack of forensic GSR was not because of the light reloads. It was because the muzzle was a considerable distance from the wound.

Some contemporary news reports to look at:
2nd Expert Says Suicide Unlikely In Bias Case - Morning Call

Gun Expert Hurts Defense In Bias Murder Trial - Morning Call

Bias Didn't Shoot Self, Medical Examiners Say - Morning Call

 

[G-ManBart]

Lots of time the forensics of shootings involve the studying of stippling patterns. They will compare those found on the body with a control from a like sample of ammo. It's easier to do this with factory ammo rather than reloads.......just sayin.....

It's not "easier with factory ammo", it's ONLY possible with factory ammo. If its reloads, there's no way to prove the remaining reloads are the same as the one(s) used in the shooting....therefore no way to prove things like gun shot residue patterns, etc.

 

[CookE]

I've read all these replies and just to add my 2 cents worth in, I've been a police officer for 43 years and still working part-time doing prisoner transports, reloading since 1970 with absolutely no problems other than the usual ones that go along with reloading, the only thing I have to say is this: "WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE"?

REMEMBER THIS ALWAYS WEAR YOUR VEST AND WAIT FOR YOUR BACKUP AND YOU TOO MIGHT LIVE TO BE A RIPE OLD AGE, WHERE THE YOUNGSTERS THINK YOUR ARE NUTS AND DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.....
Sorry, if I offended anyone, if I did I sure didn't do it on purpose.......
CookE..

 

[fredj338]

This gets banged around all the time & really comes down to personal pref. I will not intentionally use handloads for SD purposes. Not that I think I will be jailed for it but it does make the following civil case easier for the BG or his survivors to get money from you & for what? You can't make a better load than the best factory stuff & cost is not an issue. Practice w/ equiv handloads & carry tested factory, done.
As to voiding warranty, true, but so what? If you are stupid enough to KB your gun with poorly made handloads, why should the factory warranty their guns?

 

[brucev]

Re: OP. Reloading is a very rewarding hobby that will allow one to enjoy shooting to a much greater degree than possible using only factory loads. The perspective of the 1SG reflects simple ignorance.

Warranty performance lies entirely with the manufacturer. Some will cover problems with any ammo, factory or reload. Some will not.

As to legal issues with the use of reloaded ammunition in a SD/HD incident, there is of course always the possibility of a politically/ideologically motivated misuse of the legal system as a weapon to strike out at someone who has legally acted in self-defense.

If one is going to maintain and possibly have to use a firearm for SD/HD, it is extremely wise to make absolutely certain what exactly are the laws that pertain to that usage in your local area and your state. Personally, I've always preferred to use whatever was the caliber typically used by local policemen... even if possible buying the same brand/style of ammunition typically issued. This would preclude a prosecutor from trying to make an issue of the caliber/round/firearm that might be used in a SD/HD incident.

 

[RobsTV]

but it does make the following civil case easier for the BG or his survivors to get money from you & for what? You can't make a better load than the best factory stuff & cost is not an issue. Practice w/ equiv handloads & carry tested factory, done.. ?

Those are the precise reasons TO reload.

Reloading makes it "Harder" for the BG to prove anything ammo related. Why use factory ammo with spec sheets that say exactly how a factory bullet performs in a "test gun", and have that possibly used against you in your own gun that was nothing like the test gun.

Reloading makes a better load than the best factory stuff. Better accuracy. Better reliability. If not, then you are doing something wrong. Why use reloads for practice, then use factory if you life depends on it? Practice with what your life depends on.

 

[Titegroups]

Somebody please shot this thread with a more deadly reload, it keeps coming back to life.

 

[Lost Lake]

LOL, there are more threads on this than I thought...

I carry factory, but that is a good point that evidence would be harder to get with reloads.... Especially because my record keeping is so poor.

A note to anyone that thinks reloads are somehow inferior to factory ammo. HOGWASH!

A skilled reloader can produce ammunition that is MUCH BETTER than factory ammo. I have a friend that buys factory bullets and balances each one looking for perfect centerline stability. He culls out the straightest and puts them on a lathe and sizes them all exactly. He tries to get a perfectly straight, perfectly balanced bullet, with equal mass around the spinning axis. Then he resizes each case and trues it. With a perfect primer set and precise charging, he sets the bullet so the tip just touches the lands of the rifling.

This is the perfect bullet for his gun. A factory could NEVER produce this round, as it would only work in a handful of guns. My friend does this for marksmanship and I can tell you he can shoot. He is nationally ranked even.

When I reload I do some of these things, especially sizing the round for my rifle and assuring the perfect powder charge. No factory is as accurate as I am. They couldn't afford to be.

 

[RSWMTB]

Wasn't there a case in NJ a long time back where the DA painted out the shooter as a "mad scientist cooking up killer bullets in his basement"?



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[EvilBetty]

A lot of these "rules" and suggestions come from dealing with erroneous public opinion.

CCW ammo suggestions in class are usually all about keeping your intent and credibility clear. It would probably be a bad idea to load up a CCW gun with Hornady Zombie rounds, even though we all know these are just Critical Defense loads with a green tip. Carrying with rounds that are boxed with words like "Defense" and "Protection" may help support your claim that the gun and it's ammo are for self defense.

As far as reloading goes. At some point in time it became popular belief that a person that reloads ammunition is making hotter or more deadly rounds. So is born the stigma that a person walking around with a gun loaded with reloads is out to kill.

If you have a judge and or jury that knows reloading is a hobby and cost saving act, and that any round customization is generally applied only to competition... then it won't matter. But what do think the odds of that are?

 

[RSWMTB]

*
A prosecutor's duty is not to obtain convictions. It is to do justice.

If only all prosecutors lived by that mantra...



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[parabarbarian]

This might be of interest for this thread. From an article written by Marty Hayes for the June Newsletter of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network.

June 2012 - Page 5
June 2012 - Page 6
June 2012 - Page 7


The lab will try to get samples of the ammunition from the same lot or, failing that, from a lot the manufacturer can certify as being identical. The ammunition will then be tested under conditions that simulate the alleged conditions and possible distances. From that, the actual distance the shot was fired at can be more accurately estimated.

What makes this testing possible is the existence of the careful records and the exemplars from each lot that some ammunition manufacturers keep. More importantly, these records are presumed to be unbiased. While the same kind of testing can be down on reloaded ammunition, it would be difficult to get it admitted into evidence precisely because the records are not unbiased. Even if it was admitted, the prosecution could argue to the jury that the handloads tested cannot be assured the same what was used in the actual shooting thereby casting doubt on any defense claims that rely on forensic data related to the ammunition used.

 

[97thSignalman]

There are two kinds of trials to be concerned with if you shoot in self defense; The criminal trial to see if the accused committed a crime and a civil trial to determine if the shooter is liable for damages. The familiy of the alleged victim (the dead guy you shot) can try to prove in a civil trial that you are somehow responsible for their loss and grief because you used murderous ammo and are a vicious guy who intended to harm their innocent family member. The standards of proof and guilt are less in a civil trial.

A simple majority of jurors in a civil trial can find that you were probably a mean vicious guy who set out to do violent harm to their loved one.

In a criminal trial all of the jurors must find the accused guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

It would seem likely that the shooter is at more risk of an unfavoravle verdict in a civil trial.

Having that, the risk of such an unfavorable and unfair outcome can be reduced by carrying only commercial loads.

It is also possible to be found innocent in a criminal trial and still be found liable in civil trial in for the same act (remember OJ?).

 

[NicholasDM]

I've read all these replies and just to add my 2 cents worth in, I've been a police officer for 43 years and still working part-time doing prisoner transports, reloading since 1970 with absolutely no problems other than the usual ones that go along with reloading, the only thing I have to say is this: "WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE"?

REMEMBER THIS ALWAYS WEAR YOUR VEST AND WAIT FOR YOUR BACKUP AND YOU TOO MIGHT LIVE TO BE A RIPE OLD AGE, WHERE THE YOUNGSTERS THINK YOUR ARE NUTS AND DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.....
Sorry, if I offended anyone, if I did I sure didn't do it on purpose.......
CookE..

Common sense died with dignity, self-respect, respect, courtesy and responsibility at the end the last century.

Now the name of the game is "Who can I blame my self-created problems on that's not me?"

 

[walnutred]

In theory couldn't a prosecutor attempt the same argument if you are carrying any military or police caliber? That you are wanting to do more damage with a larger caliber and are a wannabe LEO.

 

[DEG]

I believe the Magnuson-Moss Act prohibits manufactures from outright voiding a warranty based on consumer use without reasonably demonstrating that the use contributed to the product failure. However, they also know if you want to challenge their decision to void your warranty you will spend more than the price of the firearm in litigation costs.

The warranties I've read that mention reloads are cleverly worded to make you think reloads will void the warranty without actually saying it. They will use words like "may" or like the S&W manual says "never use non-standard, reloaded, or "handloaded" ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing." Sounds kind of scary, but published loads have been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing.

 

[WR Moore]

............ They will use words like "may" or like the S&W manual says "never use non-standard, reloaded, or "handloaded" ammunition which has not been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing." Sounds kind of scary, but published loads have been subjected to internal ballistic pressure testing.

If you return a damaged firearm, don't you think the factories are going to evaluate the proximate cause of your problem? Get an independent 3rd party evaluation? Metal failure due to excessive pressure leaves characteristic evidence that experts can verify.

Also, just because the published data has been pressure tested in their equipment doesn't take you off the hook. Where are your records documenting your QC program and the frequency with which the calibration of your scales has been certified to be within acceptable tolerances? The accuracy of your check weights if you have and use them? Documentation that you actually verified the scale setting with those weights? I really don't want to beat this to death, but this is the stuff that wins or loses cases at trial.

As an example, the factories have written QC programs and procedures where certified techs using certified instruments test loads prior to starting production of each lot. Random samples are pulled during the production run, some are tested as QC, others held as exemplars and some are sent to independent labs to have third party documentation of the quality. If you expect to have your ammo accepted as equal in quality, you will be expected to be able to prove that. I doubt most of us can.

It's been pointed out that so far as criminal cases are concerned, the major issue is in close/contact type engagements. However, the door is also opened for ethically and/or politically motivated folks to use the home brewed stuff to raise additional issues that you really don't need during a trial for your freedom and financial well being.

But, it's a free country.