Setting the record straight on New Classic S&W M27 & M29 (a futile attempt)...

[Engineer1911]

I have a Hitachi 4' tall refrigerator that I bought used in Thailand in 1973 from my barracks roommate. I suspect the frig was made in the late 1960's. It has sat in garages, basements and since 2005 on the outside back porch. The beer is frosty cold, the caulking compound tubes don't harden, but I have to manual defrost it every 3 months.

The $1200 Sears Kenmore lasted 8 years inside a house with air conditioning. I agree with your posts that 'old was better' whether it is refrigerators or S&W revolvers (post#50).

 

[chrisdobz]

Just picked up the S&W 27-9 and it beautiful!!!! The trigger pull and action are butter smooth and so much lighter/nicer than my 29-10. I guess that makes sense being a 357 vs 44.

Enjoy,
Chris

 

[05CarbonDRZ]

Why would a .357 have a lighter/nicer trigger pull than a .44? They are both N Frames so the same computer spit out both actions.

 

[Iggy]

Dandy looking guns. Absotootinlutely wonderful shooters. Now go out and get them dirty...

 

[chrisdobz]

Why would a .357 have a lighter/nicer trigger pull than a .44? They are both N Frames so the same computer spit out both actions.

No clue but I wouldn't assume they have the same internals because they are both N frames. I have to call S&W tomorrow anyway so I'll be sure to ask. But definitely two completely different actions but the same same frame. I mean completely different and I've had now 3 different people try them both and the difference is night and day.

Maybe someone owning both the 29 and 27 could enlighten us as to why they are so different even though they are both an N frame revolver?

 

[chrisdobz]

I have a Hitachi 4' tall refrigerator that I bought used in Thailand in 1973 from my barracks roommate. I suspect the frig was made in the late 1960's. It has sat in garages, basements and since 2005 on the outside back porch. The beer is frosty cold, the caulking compound tubes don't harden, but I have to manual defrost it every 3 months.

The $1200 Sears Kenmore lasted 8 years inside a house with air conditioning. I agree with your posts that 'old was better' whether it is refrigerators or S&W revolvers (post#50).

STOP EVERYONE from comparing any commodity product to a high precision tool like a S&W revolver!!! Any commodity product will be **** because the only market driver is reduced cost and increased marketing. This is because they know people have to have (insert commodity here) and the average consumer is uneducated and looking for the most affordable solution. In other words they would prefer the commodity break/fail at some point beyond the warranty whereas Smith & Wesson have a "lifetime warranty" and strive to accomplish the opposite. Therefore, a S&W or any revolver but specifically a S&W is far from a commodity product. You want **** then go buy ****. I'm sure you can find an exact replica of an old school S&W that was just freshly made in China with all the correct S&W markings on it using all the manual labor of old sans CNC's.

 

[chrisdobz]

Dandy looking guns. Absotootinlutely wonderful shooters. Now go out and get them dirty...

Can't wait! Going to the range Saturday with the M27 to see how well it can tame the hottest of the 357 loads. I've heard good things about the N Frame M27 in that regard.

However, the M29 with some 305gr or 320gr 44mag rounds....whoa! It's a lot of fun but gloves are necessary if you don't have a shooting hand callus in the web of your hand like I do. That gun is far from tame with anything but 44 specials or the lightest of 44 magnum loads. I've tamed 240gr rounds no problem but it's always funny to see when I let people shoot it with 44 specials then we load it with 44 (240gr) mags....lets just say the iPhone is always rolling in slow mo for those moments

 

[Harkrader]

Geez, Paladin85020, your post reminds me I need a lot more money.

 

[Penmon]

The company I work for manufactures of all things Fountain Pens.
A simple but deceiving surprising difficult item to manufacture.

Our most difficult to manufacture pen has nine major parts and takes 26 separate machine operations to complete the body, cap and section.

We use two custom built CNC horizontal mills both built and the programs written by our VP of manufacturing.

Our VP of Manufacturing has over 45 years of experience designing,building and trouble shooting CNC machines primarily for the oil industry. He hold seven patents and is consider an expert in his field.

So where is all this going...From my experience in the shop and learning from our VP, these are some of the lessons I have learned.

Many variables effect tolerances, to name a few,cutting tool wear, machine wear ( belts, chucks, mandrels ) and variances in rod stock hardness from batch to batch and often within the same batch.

The fine quality of our product is achieved in the final step, hand fitting and hand polishing. Granted the CNC gives us consistence in raw parts but the hand fitting and polishing gives us that enduring quality we strive for.

It's also the most difficult step and requires the most training and attention to detail.

In my mind that the difference between old Smiths and the newer one, the new ones simply lack the skill level required to hand fit the parts. Instead they depend on MIM parts and minimal hand fitting.

I agree that the accuracy of the CNC machines may be more spot on and require a lower skill level (less money) to achieve, The blued finish may indeed be easier and safer to apply but better by what standard? M ore durable, better scratch and wear qualities. I would need proof of that but I think not as the newer finish does not penetrate as deeply into the metal.

As to lock, any time you have a proven design like the 27/586 or M29 and force a change into that design, in this case a lock, it will most likely affect the overall function of that design in some way.

Not all "improvement" are for the betterment of the function of the product in fact they most likely have to do with saving money, time or skilled labor costs or are mandated to appease social pressure, like the lock.

 

[chrisdobz]

The company I work for manufactures of all things Fountain Pens.
A simple but deceiving surprising difficult item to manufacture.

Our most difficult to manufacture pen has nine major parts and takes 26 separate machine operations to complete the body, cap and section.

We use two custom built CNC horizontal mills both built and the programs written by our VP of manufacturing.

Our VP of Manufacturing has over 45 years of experience designing,building and trouble shooting CNC machines primarily for the oil industry. He hold seven patents and is consider an expert in his field.

So where is all this going...From my experience in the shop and learning from our VP, these are some of the lessons I have learned.

Many variables effect tolerances, to name a few,cutting tool wear, machine wear ( belts, chucks, mandrels ) and variances in rod stock hardness from batch to batch and often within the same batch.

The fine quality of our product is achieved in the final step, hand fitting and hand polishing. Granted the CNC gives us consistence in raw parts but the hand fitting and polishing gives us that enduring quality we strive for.

It's also the most difficult step and requires the most training and attention to detail.

In my mind that the difference between old Smiths and the newer one, the new ones simply lack the skill level required to hand fit the parts. Instead they depend on MIM parts and minimal hand fitting.

I agree that the accuracy of the CNC machines may be more spot on and require a lower skill level (less money) to achieve, The blued finish may indeed be easier and safer to apply but better by what standard? M ore durable, better scratch and wear qualities. I would need proof of that but I think not as the newer finish does not penetrate as deeply into the metal.

As to lock, any time you have a proven design like the 27/586 or M29 and force a change into that design, in this case a lock, it will most likely affect the overall function of that design in some way.

Not all "improvement" are for the betterment of the function of the product in fact they most likely have to do with saving money, time or skilled labor costs or are mandated to appease social pressure, like the lock.

The use of machines is to improve quality while the lack of skilled labor decreases all while simultaneously having to be competitive and profitable in a market place flooded with other revolver manufacturers foreign and domestic.

People like to think that back in the day Smith and Wesson's goal was not to make a profit and grow which couldn't be farther from the truth! They pumped them guns out at the same rate they do today! These day's they can do it more accurately and since the cost of manual labor state side means that they have to use CNC's to remain the king of revolvers than so be it.

No disrespect to all those Chinese manual skilled laborers that made my iPhone...which I'm sure we will all be arguing over in 20 years..."My iPhone 6 was better made with heart and soul of all those 600 workers it took to assemble...these days your iPhone 17 is made by robots and is nowhere near as well made"

 

[chrisdobz]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=650755364642&set=vb.77100106&type=3

Enjoy

 

[aphelion]

I'm sure you can find an exact replica of an old school S&W that was just freshly made in China with all the correct S&W markings on it using all the manual labor of old sans CNC's.

I hate to break it to you amigo, but looking at the two revolvers in your photos, that is exactly what they look like. They remind me of Rossi's or Astra's of days gone by.

 

[chrisdobz]

I hate to break it to you amigo, but looking at the two revolvers in your photos, that is exactly what they look like. They remind me of Rossi's or Astra's of days gone by.

Huh?!?! Are you suggesting new S&W's are Chinese made replica's of older S&W models???? That would be like saying the S&W 29-2 is a knock off replica of the 29-1 or that the Model 27 was a knock off replica of the "Registered Magnum". Scratching my head on this comment...

 

[aphelion]

Huh?!?! Are you suggesting new S&W's are Chinese made replica's of older S&W models???? That would be like saying the S&W 29-2 is a knock off replica of the 29-1 or that the Model 27 was a knock off replica of the "Registered Magnum". Scratching my head on this comment...

No, I am not saying they were made in China. I am saying their appearance is that of a knockoff. My comparison of the current blued guns to Rossis and Astras (and we can add Llamas to the list) of the past in appearance and fit is not off the mark. You said in your original post, "However, older isn't better in any other paradigm other than collect ability and nostalgic/monetary value." We can pretend otherwise, but that just isn't so. I base this on observation over almost 50 years of accumulating S&Ws, and plenty of Colt's and Rugers and looking at and occasionally shooting all the other revolvers on the market over the years. Granted, CNC production can be accurate, but there is a difference between what is possible and what is actually being done. Someone else mentioned Freedom Arms revolvers. They are a good example of what can be done. S&W turns out nothing like that these days. I look at plenty of them. They are functional and (mostly) work OK. But go look at Doc44's or 29-1's photos of their guns and see if you still think current production is in the same league. I am not saying the new guns are bad guns not worthy of owning. I've criticized certain design elements of older S&Ws plenty on this forum, even daring to suggest that certain design aspects of Colt revolvers are superior to S&W. The endurance package addressed some of those weaknesses, so from that standpoint, the newer ones have some superior features. It is not my intention to bad mouth anybody's revolvers or hurt any feelings. But let's acknowledge reality.

 

[Penmon]

The use of machines is to improve quality while the lack of skilled labor decreases all while simultaneously having to be competitive and profitable in a market place flooded with other revolver manufacturers foreign and domestic.

People like to think that back in the day Smith and Wesson's goal was not to make a profit and grow which couldn't be farther from the truth! They pumped them guns out at the same rate they do today! These day's they can do it more accurately and since the cost of manual labor state side means that they have to use CNC's to remain the king of revolvers than so be it.

No disrespect to all those Chinese manual skilled laborers that made my iPhone...which I'm sure we will all be arguing over in 20 years..."My iPhone 6 was better made with heart and soul of all those 600 workers it took to assemble...these days your iPhone 17 is made by robots and is nowhere near as well made"

Chris, How on earth did you get this out of my post?

It was quality, design and innovation of the S&W product line that led to there market success. They made a better mouse trap and that in turn allowed them to command a premium place in the overall market. They also positioned there guns to be slightly less expensive than Colt but offered as good if not better of a product.

It should be noted that S&W has probably been using CNC or earlier versions of it for a very long time.

What has changed is the way they make parts and how those parts fit.
MIM parts are cast to tolerance and then cleaned up and installed with a minimum of hand fitting, where the older parts were machined to tolerance and then hand fitted.

This is very generalized but,
Most people I know would agree that when it came to quality of manufacturing, Colt was King, S&W was the Prince and Ruger was well Ruger and everyone else was the peasant class. The main difference between Colt, S&W vs Ruger was that Ruger used a investment cast method to manufacture and Colt and S&W machined out of real steel.

Well for all practical purposes Colt is gone from the revolver business and S&W and Ruger are using very similar manufacturing practices. So the difference becomes style and lock work, not overall quality

I help out in a gun store on Saturdays,I do this because I love guns and I enjoy learning about them.

Today in the store, I sold a brand new 686, 7 inch, smooth cylinder, Talo special. Smooth as butter, a little slop in cylinder when locked up and a ok finish. All for the the incredible low price of $995.00.

I also purchased a used 28-2, tight as drum, beautifully fitted and finished with a 4inch barrel for 650.00, just sitting in the show case looking for a new home.

The 28-2 is what, 30 plus years old, fired who knows how many times but was tighter, better finished and fitted and 345.00 less expensive than the 686.

So go ahead by the newer better made wonder smiths that just leaves more of the older technical challenged ones for me.

 

[mule69]

I am just an old retired aircraft mechanic. I would love to have a classic Model 29 but I found a 29-10 that makes me grin every time I pull the trigger. I also have a 38/44 Outdoorsman that shoots ten times better than my .38 Scandium revolver.

 

[gaspipes]

The lack of education in this country is the leading contributor to unemployment.

No, we are OVER educated in the wrong areas. Plenty of Bachelors degree through PHD jobless. The world needs plumbers and electricians but people today think that work is beneath them, bunch of uneducated fools they are. Yeah, until your sewer line breaks and you're standing knee deep in s**t. Call that unemployed guy with a Phd and see if he can help ya.

 

[Kernel Crittenden]

Since PhD stands for "Piled Higher and Deeper", they should be qualified with dealing with all that s**t.

 

[Matt Hooper]

If you look at the vastly bigger industry of watch manufacturing and collecting, you will see hand made is still superior to CNC machining.There is no comparison to a Swiss label who outsources their case, bracelet,sapphire crystal, dial, hands.crown and stems to a modern Hong Kong CNC house. Compared to a true Swiss hand made watch.Of the many International watch forums that I belong to, the comparison of the two are never considered by the collectors.Only a newbie would compare his Tag to a Maurice Lacroux.

Sorry, just had to post one of my MLs. Watches and guns! My favorites!

 

[jinx]

I have to agree with one of the above posters. In my mind, "New and Improved", doesn't necessarily mean that. All it says to me is the producer found a way to make his product cheaper. And doesn't always pass the savings on to the customer. CNC machining might be a fine and wonderful thing but even then there are differences. I like the idea of a human fitting and polishing to make something that is the best he can do. There is a reason for the pinned barrel. How can removing it make it better. I don't know how many times, just on this forum, I read about the barrel coming off in use. Put the pin back in and see how many barrels have to be "re clocked"