Shield .40 Return to battery problem

[lumberjack2003]

Anyone else have this issue?

Smith did not address this issue when I sent my Shield 40 back to them citing this issue and the mag drop problem...they just fixed the mag drop problem.

The problem is that the slide does not return fully to battery unless I rack it with some vigor. I posted a video that shows what's going on: 2012 09 06 17 50 10 - YouTube

What do you guys think? Send it back? Anyone else have anything similar?

 

[growr]

Rack your slide with vigor then......as you should always do.

Randy

 

[lumberjack2003]

Rack your slide with vigor then......as you should always do.

Randy

While I don't disagree, do you not think that it's still odd/wrong? My Springfield is nothing like this, and I can't help but think that the FTEs and FTLs are related.

Interestingly enough, if I take 3 rounds out of the 7 round mag, the problem goes away...


UPDATE: It seems I'm not the only one with this issue. There is a lengthy thread at concealedcarryforum.com where some guys with the Shield 9 are seeing the same problem and having the same lackluster response from Smith's customer service: http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=34552

 

[growr]

I am WELL acquainted with this forum and post....you will see that I addressed a number of things (user name 1813Anschutz).
Randy

 

[Lapopez]

Anyone else have this issue?

Smith did not address this issue when I sent my Shield 40 back to them citing this issue and the mag drop problem...they just fixed the mag drop problem.

The problem is that the slide does not return fully to battery unless I rack it with some vigor. I posted a video that shows what's going on: 2012 09 06 17 50 10 - YouTube

What do you guys think? Send it back? Anyone else have anything similar?

I watched your video. I did not see a problem with the function of the gun. When you racked the slide properly, by fully retracting and letting go, without walking the slide forward, it went fully into battery. What are you trying to simulate by retracting the slide a 1/4"?

 

[lumberjack2003]

I watched your video. I did not see a problem with the function of the gun. When you racked the slide properly, by fully retracting and letting go, without walking the slide forward, it went fully into battery. What are you trying to simulate by retracting the slide a 1/4"?

The scenario is probably most likely to occur when holstering or when checking the chamber for a round. What that video does not show is that when it stops shy of full battery, squeezing the slack out of the trigger (just to point of reset) will cause it to fully return also. I've actually felt this happen while shooting. After it ejected the round it came back only to that point and when I went to fire the next round it finished returning to battery which threw off the sight, logically.

What has been pointed out by the guys on concealedcarryforum.com was that there's a brass smudge on the bottom of the slide that mine also has. That fact, combined with the fact that removing 3 of the 7 rounds from the magazine causes the problem to stop tells me there is a problem with the way that high level of spring tension in the magazine is interacting with the weakness of the recoil spring when it's nearly fully extended.

I only have my XD40SC and the Shield 40 so my experience with semi pistols is not extensive but the difference between the two is striking in this regard. The XD slide is smooth, it feeds rounds 100% reliably and I have had no issues at all. The Shield has FTFs and FTLs about 4% of the time, has this RTB issue, and had the mag drop problem. I've seen that other guys who own the Shield have had the same experiences as I'm having and others say it's as reliable as my XD...

 

[growr]

Then send it to S&W and let them address your issue.

 

[robkarrob]

Nothing wrong with your gun. I have a Shield 40 and it does the same. The slide has to be fully retracted and then fully release it. Don't walk it forward. If you walk it forward the way your video shows, the chamber is raised into battery without sufficient inertia to fully seat (engage). If I very slowly walk the slide, I can duplicate that the chamber does not lock into battery.

There is nothing wrong with your 40. There is no reason to do this action. If you partially pull the slide back, "to see if you have a round loaded", it may noy go into battery. It was not designed for a gentle forward movement. The slide is supposed to be fully powered forward by the full pressure of the recoil spring. That is racking it with "vigor".

There is a peep slot in the top of the chamber, for seeing if it is chambered.


Check my 5 minute video comparing recoil of my Shield to my Ruger LC9. You will see how to rack it. Slide fully pulled back and fully released. Watch at 3 minute 20 seconds into the video to skip the intro.

Video at this link:

http://youtu.be/0ETax3N5mDY


Bob

 

[lumberjack2003]

Thanks Bob, I appreciate the feedback. Have you ever felt it clunk into batter after firing a round?

 

[scooter123]

What you have is a barrel hood that is a near perfect fit in the slide. That is actually a good thing. It portends excellent accuracy over the life of the pistol. As for how to correct it so that the slide runs into battery smoothly, that could not be easier to do. Just shoot the gun. somewhere between 200 and about 600 rounds you'll notice that hitch has disappeared.

BTW when new my EDC a Sig Sauer P239-40 had the barrel hood fitted so tightly into the slide that it required a tap with the handle of a screwdriver to free the barrel from the slide after field stripping it for a cleaning. That went on to about the 1000 round mark. As for the hitch you noted on yours, that gradually disappeared and was totally absent at the 600 round mark. Currently I've put 3200 rounds downrange with that P239 and NOT ONCE in it's entire history has it malfunctioned even once. In addition if I cheat and use my "weak" eye and shoot from a rest it will easily group under 2 inches at 50 feet in slow fire.

Bottomline the only thing you need to do with your shield is to stop fiddling with it and start shooting it.

 

[lumberjack2003]

Thanks for the reply scooter. I have about 250 through it so far and I'm going to put some more through it tomorrow. Based on your suggestions and feedback, as well as the responses from the others, I feel better about it. I still need to drift the front sight a bit but hopefully that will be the end of it!

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[robkarrob]

Negative as to "clunk into battery after firing a round". I've never had any problems, other than the mag drops. All my mags now have the "bump". Got two new factory bump mags (had to send my Shield in for warranty repair) and the two original mags that I hand formed the bumps. I now have a perfect gun. No more mag drops. I've never had any FTF or FTL or any other kind of problems.

I've installed an Apex sear and blocker. Replaced the stock Shield trigger spring with a Glock trigger spring. Made an over travel stop on the back of the trigger. I have 3/8 inch take up from trigger rest to the sear pick up. Then 1/16 inch sear pull; bang; .008 inch over travel; and then 1/16 inch to reset. Trigger pull is 3 lbs 10 oz. This is my primary carry gun, and YES I do use the manual safety.

Just finished putting on my custom Talon grip. Ordered extra material to go with the rubber Talon grip. Since the Shield is subcompact, it has a small grip. I made the stock Shield grip longer (front to back) by adding 1/2 inch material at the rear of the grip. I still have plenty of tail, for the web of my hand, to prevent slide bite. I have large hands and now my trigger finger only extends 1/2 inch in front of the trigger guard. It used to extend 1 full inch. I had to bend my finger a lot to get to the trigger. My trigger finger is now 90 degrees at break and my finger pad is centered on the trigger. Before I modified the grip my trigger finger was bent way past 90 degrees at break (very awkward pull). With the stock grip I could not use the pad of my finger but had to extend my finger way in and pull from the joint, between the first and second bones (again very awkward). With this new modified grip and the mechanical modifications, I think I have a perfect gun. Very comfortable to shoot, and easy to get close groups. I mostly pocket carry, Florida and cargo shorts.

I added a Lasermax laser sight. The verdict is still out on this. I just got the Lasermax installed, and took it to the range. After I fired 50 or so rounds, I turned the laser on to sight it in. The laser light was hardly visible, and had a fuzzy pinpoint. At home the laser was bright and pinpoint. My Crimson Trace laser, on my Ruger LC9, has a dime sized laser pinpoint at 13 yards and is very visible in daylight. The Lasermax was very dim in daylight and instead of a dime sized pinpoint, the light is fuzzy and about two inches in diameter. I called Lasermax and they are sending out a new sight. Time will tell.

Bob

 

[lumberjack2003]

I've never had any FTF or FTL or any other kind of problems.

Bob

This is what's got me on a witch hunt. From what I'm seeing online I'm very much in the minority with my FTL and FTE problems. I've used several types of ammo and all of them have had 1 or 2 problems per 50 round box.

I might just have to send it back to smith again to see what they can find. I'm just hesitant because it's not something that can be instantly reproduced. If it's going to be my EDC then it needs to be as reliable as what everyone else seems to be experiencing.

 

[andrewb70]

Lumberjack,

I honestly don't believe that there is anything mechanically wrong with your pistol. Racking the slide "gently" as you show, is not how the gun is supposed to run. When racking a round you should pull back firmly and let it snap into battery.

If you are having FTF or FTE then I suggest you examine your grip. With such a small, light weight pistol limpwristing becomes more of an issue.

I learned this lesson first hand when my GF purchased a 3914LS. We took it out and the gun just wouldn't run. Failure after failure. Then I shot it and it ran like a dream. It took a set of Hogue grips to get the gun running with her shooting.

Perhaps look into a set of Talon rubber or rough grips. I bet you 50 bucks that your issues will go away.

Andrew

 

[robkarrob]

lumberjack2003

A gun is a machine with a number of moving parts. As such your gun could have a defective part due to a manufacturing problem. Something as minor as a small burr on a part could be causing your problem. Is the manual safety still installed? If not there could be a problem there.

The post by andrewb70 is also an option. If the wrist and arm are locked during shooting, the slide will driven straight back and return with minimal resistance (path of least resistance). During the recoil, the slide is moving straight back, parallel to the ground. But if the wrist and or arm flips up, the direction of the slide has changed to say 45 degrees downward, causing a loss if inertia and slowing both the recoil and return speed of the slide. The term "limp wristing" could cause ejection and or loading problems.

If you are sure shooting flip is not the problem, then before sending your Shield back to S&W, I would check the following:

It is easier for me to make a short video:

Shield battery problem.MOV - YouTube

Bob

 

[andrewb70]

lumberjack2003

A gun is a machine with a number of moving parts. As such your gun could have a defective part due to a manufacturing problem. Something as minor as a small burr on a part could be causing your problem. Is the manual safety still installed? If not there could be a problem there.

The post by andrewb70 is also an option. If the wrist and arm are locked during shooting, the slide will driven straight back, and forward with minimal resistance (path of least resistance). During the recoil, the slide was moving straight back, parallel to the ground. But if the wrist and or arm flips up, the direction of the slide has changed to say 45 degrees downward, causing a loss if inertia and slowing both the recoil and return speed of the slide. The term "limp wristing" could cause ejection and or loading problems.

If your sure shooting flip is not the problem, then before sending your Shield back to S&W, I would check the following:

It is easier for me to make a short video:

Shield battery problem.MOV - YouTube

Bob

Great video Bob.

Andrew

 

[lumberjack2003]

Andrew, thanks for the feedback. I don't think the problem is limp wristed shooting (if anything I tend to white-knuckle the thing) but I'll keep an eye on that. I shot about 150 rounds through it today, putting my total to about 400. I had no FTFs but 3 FTEs. The first was about 30 rounds in, and the 2nd and 3rd were close together, about 120 rounds in.

Overall it shot well be the FTEs are quite annoying and keep me wondering if there is something wrong. I'll probably put another 100 though it on Weds so hopefully I'm just not through the break in period...

 

[lumberjack2003]

Thanks for the video Bob, I really appreciate you taking the time to do all that. I'll check those things tonight.

Just to clarify my video footage, I think everyone got the impression that I was pulling back and not letting go. I was actually pulling back and completely releasing despite how it appeared from the poor angle I shot the video from. I doubt it makes a lick of difference but I wanted to clear that up.

Like I said, I do appreciate you guys giving me the benefit of your superior level of expertise and experience!

 

[lumberjack2003]

OK so thanks to Bob's help, I think I've found the issue. As you'll see from my latest video, the slide does not move freely the way Bob's does. M&P Shield 40 Issue - Followup - YouTube

I did note on the original trouble ticket that the ejector looked to be rubbing on something and that it seemed slightly deformed. They did not address that issue at all but it appears to be the cause of this FTE problem so it's probably going to get another plane ride back to Smith.

Does my conclusion seem reasonable to you guys?

 

[andrewb70]

OK so thanks to Bob's help, I think I've found the issue. As you'll see from my latest video, the slide does not move freely the way Bob's does. M&P Shield 40 Issue - Followup - YouTube

I did note on the original trouble ticket that the ejector looked to be rubbing on something and that it seemed slightly deformed. They did not address that issue at all but it appears to be the cause of this FTE problem so it's probably going to get another plane ride back to Smith.

Does my conclusion seem reasonable to you guys?

Great diagnosing!

If the ejector is not exactly in the right place, that would certainly be the cause of your FTE and also the sticking slide. After seeing that, I say you have a pretty good case to have S&W take a look at it.

Andrew

 

[robkarrob]

lumberjack2003

I agree with you, your video shows the ejector is slightly bent upwards. I have no wear marks on my ejector, except at the very tip (as it should be) , where the casing is being knocked out. This is likely the cause of your FTE. The ejector being slightly out of alignment can cause the FTE and be causing the extra drag on the slide. Since it is a warranty issue you will have to send it in to S&W. If you don't mind replacing it yourself, you might see if S&W will send out a new ejector. It is an easy task and you won't lose the use of your gun for several weeks, while it sits waiting for repair. Knowing S&W, they will say you have to send your Shield in. At least when you get it back you will have a reliable gun and be able to use it for EDC. Keep us updated.

I would like to know how long the turn around takes. They had my gun for five weeks. They missed the FedEx pick up (to send the gun back to me) the last day before their 2 week shutdown for vacations, so they had my Shield 7 full weeks ( 5+2), just for the mag drop.

Bob

 

[lumberjack2003]

Ok, thanks Andrew!

 

[lumberjack2003]

lumberjack2003

I agree with you, your video shows the ejector is slightly bent upwards. I have no wear marks on my ejector, except at the very tip (as it should be) , where the casing is being knocked out. This is likely the cause of your FTE. The ejector being slightly out of alignment can cause the FTE and be causing the extra drag on the slide. Since it is a warranty issue you will have to send it in to S&W. If you don't mind replacing it yourself, you might see if S&W will send out a new ejector. It is an easy task and you won't lose the use of your gun for several weeks, while it sits waiting for repair. Knowing S&W, they will say you have to send your Shield in. At least when you get it back you will have a reliable gun and be able to use it for EDC. Keep us updated.

I would like to know how long the turn around takes. They had my gun for five weeks. They missed the FedEx pick up (to send the gun back to me) the last day before their 2 week shutdown for vacations, so they had my Shield 7 full weeks ( 5+2), just for the mag drop.

Bob

When I sent it back for the mag drop problem it was about 1 week before the 2 week shutdown. I think I went without it for about 6 weeks.

I'll definitely let you know how long it takes.

Thanks again for the help!

 

[Lost Lake]

I feel sorry for you guys.... I wish I could collect all the frequent flier miles these Shields have racked up for warranty work!

I hope all the bugs are worked out by the time I finally get one. None of my semi-auto pistols drop mags, stay out of battery, FTE, or have any of the problems the Shield does.

Maybe I'll skip the Shield and get a Chief's Special instead.

 

[lumberjack2003]

I feel sorry for you guys.... I wish I could collect all the frequent flier miles these Shields have racked up for warranty work!

I hope all the bugs are worked out by the time I finally get one. None of my semi-auto pistols drop mags, stay out of battery, FTE, or have any of the problems the Shield does.

Maybe I'll skip the Shield and get a Chief's Special instead.

From what I can tell, the 9mm version has had fewer issues than the .40. I love the size and shape of it, and once I have it working the way it should, I'm sure I'll love it.

My biggest complaint is that Smith is not living up to their customer service reputation. It seems that they are denying knowledge of issues when folks call in, and my experience has been that they don't even read the notes you give them when you send your gun in for repair. I cited a couple problems (and the wear on the extractor was definitely on there) and yet they only fixed the magazine problem and shipped it back home. Others have had to send theirs back 3 separate times. That's insane to me. Why not fix it completely the first time? If ever they have to look at one twice, it should be run through an insane battery of tests to make sure it's RIGHT before it goes back. One of the reasons I bought a Smith was because of their reputation...but I sort of feel like I was duped.

If Smith can make it right this time, I'll regain some confidence but they're doing real damage to their brand these days...

 

[robkarrob]

My only problem has been the mag drop problem. It is fixed and I have no more problems. I have made several modifications that have made my Shield 40 even better. Since I enlarged the grip, I can now grip the gun and pull the trigger much more comfortable. I reworked the trigger and have a shorter, crisper trigger pull with minimal over travel. So I am good to go and very happy with my decision to buy the Shield.

Any new purchasers of a Shield should have a worry free gun, as S&W now has the bugs worked out. I think Andrew's problem with the ejector and the FTL/FTE is an isolated incident. I have not heard of or read that anyone else has had that problem(s).

Bob

 

[rod442]

I have been following the mag drop issue on the this forum, but I just found this thread. My shield 40 doesn't drop mags, but it does stick outside of battery if I do what others have showed. This probably isn't the worst thing that can happen, unless I dont check it after inserting into a holster it stays OOB when pulled.

unsure if I will send it back at this point or not. I suspect I will, but I want to get some more rounds through the gun to break it in and be totally sure it doesn't start dropping mags. I read some people have that start around 150 rounds fired, and I only have about 100.

keep us posted as to what smith fixes to resolve this issue.

 

[robkarrob]

Rod442 reply

?? Stick outside of battery ?? Are you saying you rack the slide and it does not fully go forward and the breech does not fully lock up as it loads a cartridge?

If this is what you are saying then two questions.

Are you fully pulling the slide back as far as it will move and then fully releasing the slide allowing it to snap forward, driving the cartridge into the chamber? No pushing with your hand, just letting the recoil spring do the work.

What ammunition are you using when this happens?

Bob

 

[rod442]

What I saw on some other peoples posts on another forum, and on a video posted here; is that IF the slide gets nudged back from full lockup, it will not return to fully closed. and once that happens, it will not fire.

see this thread: Concealed Carry Forum - M&P Shield - out of battery failure

and video: M&P Shield 9mm Problem - YouTube

Before anyone complains about the safety practices in the vid, the poster (not me) said he was using inert rounds to simulate a live round in the chamber.

as for ammo, I only checked it with ranger t 185 gn. I will see if my federal, jacketed range ammo does this when I get home.
Where this could be a problem, is that if you fail to notice that the weapon had been jarred and the slide stuck back like in the video. If you need it to go bang, it wont.
could have happened when holstering, presenting, whatever. this also could happen if a badguy is in arms reach, and is fighting for your gun, you pull back try to fire and its in this position, etc etc....

I DID fool with mine some, and have narrowed it down to it only occuring when I have a case in the chamber, no mags inserted. I then took it apart, and liberally oiled all the slide points, barrel top etc and it went away for about 15-20 workings of the slide. then came back.

Hoping its just a tight gun, and more shooting will solve the issue.

as for ammo, I have only checked it with Ranger T 185gr rounds, I will see if the Federal range ammo I have will do the same.

 

[vista461]

My M&P 9c does the same thing shown in video rod442 showed. I have carried it almost daily since January and had exactly ZERO issues in the real world holstering and unholstering in my Safariland Model 18 IWB holster. Never hung up OOB, or even had the slide move back.