OP
Just a Federal offense, no worries
Of course you filled out the USPS Form 1508?
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf
Shipping guns without the use of a (shipping)FFL??
- Thread starter Rule3
- Start date
Of course you filled out the USPS Form 1508?
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf
Georgia to South Carolina 2nd day air (pistol with insurance) was $39.
As I stated above, you MUST drop off at a customer service center, not a UPS store or drop off point, so distance may play a factor.
Had I gone to my FFL, shipping would have been around $35 and a $25 transfer fee.
Doug M.
Member
*
The federal law standard is different for handguns and long guns, and as I recall, your method was lawful.
Correct, I’ve shipped long guns via USPS, and a rifle lower is still a long gun.
NewLiberty
Member
It actually depends on if the lower was ever manufactured into a rifle or pistol, or if it was still just a receiver.
If an AR-15 lower has been manufactured into a rifle, the receiver is a rifle. However, if it had been manufactured into a pistol, the receiver is a pistol. If it is still a receiver and has never been manufactured into a rifle or pistol, it is neither a rifle or a pistol, legally speaking.
I can just picture someone illegally mailing a 95%+ RM, having the gun get stolen and then declaring to the PO that those Chinese screwdrivers they shipped in a flat rate box were worth $10-15,000.
Yaworski
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 883
- Reaction score
- 1,209
The issue becomes if something goes wrong, you've violated the GCA '68 which requires that you tell the shipper that you are shipping a gun. A middle class gun owner will be prosecuted to make a point.
I once asked my ATF inspector why we had to tell UPS that we were shipping a gun and he said, "Because it is the law." He didn't care about the rationale for the law.
Yaworski
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 883
- Reaction score
- 1,209
You don't relinquish ownership, just custody.
Yaworski
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 883
- Reaction score
- 1,209
It all depends on whether the transfer is interstate or intrastate and what state laws are on intrastate transfers.
Any interstate transfer is required to go though a licensee at the receiving end. Even a gun show sale.
I'm just wondering, I had to return a gun to Ruger. They sent a shipping label, I think, and FedEX picked the gun up here and delivered it back to me from Ruger. Is that different because it's not being transferred (sold)?
NewLiberty
Member
Yes. A non-FFL firearm owner can ship a firearm directly back to the manufacturer for repairs.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
- Messages
- 1,741
- Reaction score
- 3,423
Yes.
The manufacturer or custom shop, that has an FFL, they can return it back to the owner direct.
The manufacturer or custom shop, that has an FFL, they can return it back to the owner direct.
Some might be interested in this BATF FAQ. It has some interesting information, including the answer to the OP's question. Always go to the source.
6. May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?
Any person may ship firearms directly to a licensee in any State, with no requirement for another licensee to ship the firearm. However, handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715). The USPS and private common or contract carriers may also have additional restrictions on firearms shipments by unlicensed persons. Firearms shipped to FFLs for repair or any other lawful purpose may be returned to the person from whom received without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence. FFLs may also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received (18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A)). An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).
6. May I lawfully ship a firearm directly to an out-of-State licensee, or must I have a licensee in my State ship it to him? May the licensee return the firearm to me, even if the shipment is across State lines?
Any person may ship firearms directly to a licensee in any State, with no requirement for another licensee to ship the firearm. However, handguns and other concealable firearms are not mailable through the United States Postal Service and must be shipped via private common or contract carrier (18 U.S.C. § 1715). The USPS and private common or contract carriers may also have additional restrictions on firearms shipments by unlicensed persons. Firearms shipped to FFLs for repair or any other lawful purpose may be returned to the person from whom received without transferring the firearm through an FFL in the recipient’s State of residence. FFLs may also return a replacement firearm of the same kind and type to the person from whom received (18 U.S.C. § 922(a)(2)(A)). An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).
Last edited:
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,094
- Reaction score
- 46,821
NO, it is not a federal offense.Just a Federal offense, no worries
Of course you filled out the USPS Form 1508?
https://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf
Individuals CAN mail long guns.
Scroll down to 432.3-
432 Mailability
The form 1508 says at top:
so I assume individuals are not required to file one.
Last edited:
Excerpt below is from my post above, so how does the 4473 fit into mailability for a non-licensee?
An ATF Form 4473 is required for the return of the firearm, except in instances when a firearm is delivered to a licensee for the sole purpose of repair or customizing, and the same firearm or a replacement firearm is returned to the person from whom
received (27 CFR § 478.124(a)).
Yaworski
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 883
- Reaction score
- 1,209
If I, a non-licensee, mail a shotgun to my friend across the state, there is no need for a 4473 because I'm not a licensee and the intrastate transfer is perfectly legal.
If a licensee mails a firearm intrastate to someone who is NICS exempt, there is a procedure for the 4473.
ATF Proc. 2020-1 – Recordkeeping procedure for non-over-the-counter firearm sales by licensees to unlicensed in-state residents that are NICS exempt | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
OP
What was the lower initially listed as??
Whatever, doesn't matter the original post was about folks shipping handgun without using a FFL
Couldn't add this due to log out issues
431.1 Firearm
The following definitions apply:
- Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, which will, or is designed to, or may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include antique firearms (except antique firearms meeting the description of a handgun or of a firearm capable of being concealed on a person).
- Firearm frame or receiver is the part of a firearm which provides housing for the hammer, bolt or breechblock, and firing mechanism, and which is usually threaded at its forward portion to receive the barrel. Frames and receivers usually (but not always) include the firearm serial number and are usually considered to be the regulated component of a firearm.
A lower or frame is a "firearm" and not mailable per USPS definitions
Last edited:
ShipMyGun Experience
I used Shipmygun for the first time last week to ship two handguns I sold on the forum. Fully insured cost about $40 each. Worked out well. I am pleased with the experience because the last time I sold a gun shipping cost me just over $100.
Here's my experience:
• You answer questions on ShipMyGuns website, pay with a credit card, and they email you a prepaid UPS label to print out for your box.
• You put a copy of your DL and your buyer's name and contact info in the box, and stick the label on the outside. (I was told if you can't print out the label yourself, UPS will do this for you when you give it to them.)
• You then take your box with handgun and with prepaid label affixed to a UPS "Customer Service Center." This is a UPS hub. You cannot just take the box to any UPS location.
Shipmygun has FFLs who have registered with it all over the country. The FFL you are sending to must be registered with Shipmygun. You choose the one you want to send to from a drop down menu. If not registered, I saw somewhere that FFL's can register with them and the registered list is updated twice a week. In my case, one buyer's preferred FFL was registered and the other's wasn't, but in the latter's case a nearby FFL was registered and we used that one.
I called Shipmygun a couple of times, explaining I was a first time customer, for clarifications. They answered quickly and were courteous:
First question I had was they ask you to choose one of three sizes of boxes. This confused me because I already had boxes. When I asked what was that about, the woman told me the size of the box did not matter, that they charged by weight. (I later saw somewhere, maybe in the FAQs, that they no longer provide boxes anyway because boxes were getting damaged in shipping to customers. While irrelevant, since the site seems to want you to choose a box size, I chose the medium one.) I used a kitchen scale for weight, and plugged that in.
Second time I called I wanted to know when they asked what zip code you were shipping from, did they want your home address zip code or the UPS Customer Service Center location zip code. They said the latter. (My guess is that in reality it does not matter, unless you choose a UPS location far from the closest ones to you.)
Third time I called was to ask where my receipt or label was after their site accepted my credit card. I received no immediate email response like one gets with most sites. Answer to that one was that all orders are reviewed by a human, and that my receipt/label would show up within one biz day. One email with label arrived later that day.
However, my second label did not arrive.
When I bought the second label I got, briefly, an error message, but then the order seemed to go through. But, 24 hours later, no label. It occurred to me to check my credit card statement online. I saw where I had been charged for the second label, but that the charge had soon been reversed.
I called for a fourth time to ask what was up. They advised to clear the last 24 hours of my cookie cache on my iPad. I did that, ordered the label again, and it showed up later that same day.
After checking for UPS Customer Centers on Google Maps, I found one on the way to my gunsmith's, who is about an hour and 15 minutes from me, and decided to drop off the packages along the way the next day as I wanted to have a couple of my guns worked on.
Next day I get to the UPS Customer Center I have chosen and — surprise, surprise! — the Customer Center is closed. For the week. (I met a nice UPS guy in the parking lot who helped me figure this out. Never occurred to me that they would close a hub's customer service center for a week...)
Anyway, on to the gunsmith's. Dropped off the guns to be worked on, then off to a different UPS hub where I dropped off the guns to be shipped, no questions asked, and then returned home.
So, all in all, I rate it as a good experience, and I like the price. (I will call the UPS Customer Service Center next time around to be sure they are open though!)
I used Shipmygun for the first time last week to ship two handguns I sold on the forum. Fully insured cost about $40 each. Worked out well. I am pleased with the experience because the last time I sold a gun shipping cost me just over $100.
Here's my experience:
• You answer questions on ShipMyGuns website, pay with a credit card, and they email you a prepaid UPS label to print out for your box.
• You put a copy of your DL and your buyer's name and contact info in the box, and stick the label on the outside. (I was told if you can't print out the label yourself, UPS will do this for you when you give it to them.)
• You then take your box with handgun and with prepaid label affixed to a UPS "Customer Service Center." This is a UPS hub. You cannot just take the box to any UPS location.
Shipmygun has FFLs who have registered with it all over the country. The FFL you are sending to must be registered with Shipmygun. You choose the one you want to send to from a drop down menu. If not registered, I saw somewhere that FFL's can register with them and the registered list is updated twice a week. In my case, one buyer's preferred FFL was registered and the other's wasn't, but in the latter's case a nearby FFL was registered and we used that one.
I called Shipmygun a couple of times, explaining I was a first time customer, for clarifications. They answered quickly and were courteous:
First question I had was they ask you to choose one of three sizes of boxes. This confused me because I already had boxes. When I asked what was that about, the woman told me the size of the box did not matter, that they charged by weight. (I later saw somewhere, maybe in the FAQs, that they no longer provide boxes anyway because boxes were getting damaged in shipping to customers. While irrelevant, since the site seems to want you to choose a box size, I chose the medium one.) I used a kitchen scale for weight, and plugged that in.
Second time I called I wanted to know when they asked what zip code you were shipping from, did they want your home address zip code or the UPS Customer Service Center location zip code. They said the latter. (My guess is that in reality it does not matter, unless you choose a UPS location far from the closest ones to you.)
Third time I called was to ask where my receipt or label was after their site accepted my credit card. I received no immediate email response like one gets with most sites. Answer to that one was that all orders are reviewed by a human, and that my receipt/label would show up within one biz day. One email with label arrived later that day.
However, my second label did not arrive.
When I bought the second label I got, briefly, an error message, but then the order seemed to go through. But, 24 hours later, no label. It occurred to me to check my credit card statement online. I saw where I had been charged for the second label, but that the charge had soon been reversed.
I called for a fourth time to ask what was up. They advised to clear the last 24 hours of my cookie cache on my iPad. I did that, ordered the label again, and it showed up later that same day.
After checking for UPS Customer Centers on Google Maps, I found one on the way to my gunsmith's, who is about an hour and 15 minutes from me, and decided to drop off the packages along the way the next day as I wanted to have a couple of my guns worked on.
Next day I get to the UPS Customer Center I have chosen and — surprise, surprise! — the Customer Center is closed. For the week. (I met a nice UPS guy in the parking lot who helped me figure this out. Never occurred to me that they would close a hub's customer service center for a week...)
Anyway, on to the gunsmith's. Dropped off the guns to be worked on, then off to a different UPS hub where I dropped off the guns to be shipped, no questions asked, and then returned home.
So, all in all, I rate it as a good experience, and I like the price. (I will call the UPS Customer Service Center next time around to be sure they are open though!)
Last edited:
Not if it arrived damaged it wouldn't. They won't pay a claim on a DAMAGED shipment without inspecting the damaged package and the damage to the contents - assuming the gun stayed completely hidden in the box and got delivered.
Also if the box were damaged in transit - say the barrel of the gun poked through the side of the box - once it was identified as a gun that was shipped improperly, they would then turn the gun, and box (with your address on the shipping label) over to the ATF. I expect you'd get a call from the local ATF office. They certainly wouldn't pay any kind of claim.
Yaworski
Member
- Joined
- May 21, 2016
- Messages
- 883
- Reaction score
- 1,209
When I lived in Maryland, the UPS depot closes to me had a customer service desk that was open from 7 to 7. So I thought that was normal. After I moved to Pittsburgh, I needed to ship something so I headed to the UPS depot only to discover that the customer service desk closed at 2 PM. Not exactly friendly to walk in business.
