Shooting a handgun while holding a flashlight

RT44nut said:
Last night took my large German Shepherd outside and he immediately jumped on a large raccoon next to our pond. The raccoon made it the water with Max in pursuit. The next sight was the coon had Max under water. I fired a shot from a 642 I keep in my pocket and Max was able to get away and headed to the house. I was holding the flashlight and the coon was swimming away, 15 to 20 feet. I took careful aim and saw the shot splashed a few inches to the left. Careful placement of the next 2 shots got the same results. The last shot I placed to the right and hit him dead center.

My thoughts are the flashlight reflection on the revolver caused this? Has anyone had similar results shooting at night?
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I was taught the Harries technique in the day but that was on large targets upclose with a service size revolver. I think any technique will be challenged under your circumstances.
 
RT44nut said:
My Grandfather lost more than 1 good coon houndView attachment 756145 like that and told me he felt like a coon could drown a man. Max is a very large, muscular 120 pound boy that I've seen rip through armadillos like they were nothing. Max can hardly get up this morning. He's moving like I move.
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Max, I hope you did not get bit, and if so, have the Racoon remains tested for rabies. Max, I hope you set your jaws on bad 2 legged bad guys from now on.
 
mscampbell2734 said:
Weapon mounted lights are the next step in this evolution of gun light technique. WML allow a user to positively identify a potential threat as an actual threat OR non-threat and if a threat deliver accurate fire on target as quickly as possible. No other method is as fast or accurate as WML PERIOD.

When I attended the FBI Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor course in 2007 about half the class had WML and half not. I took two guns, one with and one without. I had already been an instructor for 6 years was considered a fairly good shot. During night shooting it quickly became clear WML gave the shooter a clear speed and accuracy edge over ANY gun/light technique.

Being afraid of return fire is part of the overall problem. Avoiding being shot verse accurate and fast fire7th. One or the other, only you can decide what you consider the first priority.
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Good points and good discussion. I've been a certified firearms instructor since 1983 and last attended a firearms instructor course in 2023 in Mogadishu.

The problem with weapon-mounted lights and laser sights remains the same - adversaries might be anywhere around you and in multiples. Add large building interiors or complex outdoor search areas and the problems compound. WML can work IF you have enough officers in a reasonably known search area and IF you are reasonably sure you have only one hostile. If there is even slight information of a booby trap or primary and secondary IEDs, that's diffetent - WMLs or lasers give the operator a perfect decision point for pressing the button to maximize casualties.

WML or lasers can get one or two officers who don't have specific information on where the suspect(s) is hidden ambushed and slaughtered. I'd post a picture of that aftermath but don't want to get 'dinged.'

For every new piece of technology or new tactic there is quickly a countermeasure.
 
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biku324 said:
Good points and good discussion. I've been a certified firearms instructor since 1983 and last attended a firearms instructor course in 2023 in Mogadishu.

The problem with weapon-mounted lights and laser sights remains the same - adversaries might be anywhere around you and in multiples. Add large building interiors or complex outdoor search areas and the problems compound. WML can work IF you have enough officers in a reasonably known search area and IF you are reasonably sure you have only one hostile. If there is even slight information of a booby trap or primar and secondary IEDs, WMLs or lasers give the operator a perfect decision point for pressing the button to maximize casualties.

WML or lasers can get one or two officers who don't have specific information one where the suspect(s) is hidden ambushed and slaughtered. I'd post a picture of that aftermath but don't want to get 'dinged.'

For every new piece of technology or new tactic there is quickly a countermeasure.
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Giving away your position and providing an aim point has always been an issue.

Look at the M60 tank with it's massive cannon mounted spot light.

Sonar and radar are the same. A sub that actively searches for an enemy can be detected much further away by another sub that's running silent and listening. Same with radar.

BUT we are the good guys. We can not just shoot at shadows and "I think I saw something" We have to know exactly what we're shooting at. In that regard we're always going to be at a disadvantage.

WMLs do have their uses. The biggest issue is people believing it's WML or handheld. The answer is both. Most situations will not require fast and accurate fire in low light conditions. When the situation does require aimed fire the WML is king. Some tactical situations might be better served by a team with one person using a huge light and another person being ready to return fire. Sort of like in Dirty Harry.

General searching and checking that bump in the night is something else. A good handheld light AND being able to quickly and seamlessly go to one of the gun/light techniques might be the best option.

Here's a good video talking about this from a CCW viewpoint.

 
RT44nut said:
Last night took my large German Shepherd outside and he immediately jumped on a large raccoon next to our pond. The raccoon made it the water with Max in pursuit. The next sight was the coon had Max under water. I fired a shot from a 642 I keep in my pocket and Max was able to get away and headed to the house. I was holding the flashlight and the coon was swimming away, 15 to 20 feet. I took careful aim and saw the shot splashed a few inches to the left. Careful placement of the next 2 shots got the same results. The last shot I placed to the right and hit him dead center.

My thoughts are the flashlight reflection on the revolver caused this? Has anyone had similar results shooting at night?
Click to expand...
Mostly caused by curling your trigger finger or all of your fingers during the final stage of the press. Causes left hits regardless of sights and lights. This is the main case of right-handed shooters hitting left of the POA.

Google "Beyond the Muzzle" for an instructor level book that covers this and other critical topics.
 
Thank you all for every response and taking the time. Some things were helpful and I'll try in the future. I didn't mention that it wax very dark and raining. I could not have seen them without a flashlight. The light and gun go out with me every night. I do normally shoot with 2 hands. The 44 mags I still love to shoot require that at 71 and did earlier in life. I was as calm as I could be thinking my best friend was being drowned. I will try shooting one handed this week and see my grouping compared with 2 hands. I was still very proud of my old self to be able to kill the coon under those conditions. Max is doing well. Still doesn't want me rubbing his ear the coon bit through. He might could have handled the coon on dry land but I would still had to intervene.
 
We tested weapons mounted lights and I was never a fan. Bulky, and you tended to use your gun as a flashlight. Never a good idea. There are several solid techniques for shooting a handgun with a separate flashlight that have been taught for decades. I'm very comfortable with a flashlight. I'd advise looking up a few instructional videos on flashlight techniques and trying them out yourself. It's a skill learned through practice. Good job protecting your pup.
 
RT44nut said:
... I fired a shot from a 642 I keep in my pocket
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RT44nut said:
... I was holding the flashlight and the coon was swimming away, 15 to 20 feet.
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RT44nut said:
Has anyone had similar results shooting at night?
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Bring more gun. My dog alerted to a varmint at the Chicken Coop at oh dark thirty and my six inch S&W Model 29 took care of business with two shots. (second shot was to end its suffering)
 
Holding a revolver and a flashlight. This now I do it.
R.50e3ab0fe7f55aeac8a01d6915c38e48
 
The close to the clubhouse ranges at my club face east. This time of year, late autumn/fall, the sun tracks well to the north, on the left hand side of the ranges. This creates the effect that when the sights are alighed properly there is more sunlight down the left hand side. Instinct is to move the front sight to the left to get the light equal down each side, moving the point of impact left.

A few years ago, about this time of year, I was running a match. One of the shooters suddenly found his group had moved to the left significantly. I told him about the effect the sun would have at the time of morning and he didn't believe me. I told him to stand in the shadow on the left hand side of the range, and his point of impact immediately moved back to the target centre.

Yesterday I was sighting in a new load in one of my .45ACP 1911's. It was mid morning and my first group went well to the left of centre. It came back again when I concentrated on the sight, not the light.

I guess holding a torch in your left hand close to the gun at night would have the same effect.

For several years now we have had a WML attached to our Glock 17 duty pistols. There have been stories of cops whose flashlights have given up functioning while they were armed, drawing their Glocks to use the WML. Not recommended and actively discouraged by the brass for obvious reasons.
 
The photo above shows the Harries technique. This was the preferred method that I taught in the police academy for 18 years. It works great on various targets. It was required by the State Police Training Commission for basic training.

However, I also told the recruits of my own poop hits the turbo under extream stress that when I observed a sawed off double barrel coming up at me at from VERY close range from inside a car I threw the flashlight in the suspects face while forming a very tight two handed grip.and shoving the model 10 barrel well inside said suspects right ear. At the same time I was screaming "SHOTGUN" to alert my partner at the driver's side. He too shoved his model 10 into the driver's left ear. Deeply.

Arrests were safely made. We were on a 3AM stake out of area bars during the Christmas robbery season. Even when you're there for just that reason, the flashlight training is pure B/S when a 12 guage and an adrenaline dump is involved. Just sayin'. YMMV.
 
Biku325 makes some excellent points about WMLs. Just as a historical note, they got started back in the early days (~1970) of counter terrorist teams. Dynamic entry teams needed a way to quicky ID those who needed shooting and wearable night vision didn't exist. Handguns generally weren't being used in those situations, so a hand held light was a problem. One bolted to the MP5 (or cultural equivalent) was the answer. I'll also point out that evil doer reactions after experiencing a "distraction device" aren't real swift.

The first generally accepted law enforcement version (that I know of) involved a light for shotguns. It was pretty much the only way to use both a shotgun and a light.
 
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I was the range officer when the vice squad came down with flashlight mounted shotguns for qualifications. They bought and put them on themselves. It seemed like a good idea, until the first shot or two.

Those early day lights extinguished themselves under 12 gauge pump recoil. It was about five more years until design caught up.
 
RT44nut said:
Last night took my large German Shepherd outside and he immediately jumped on a large raccoon next to our pond. The raccoon made it the water with Max in pursuit. The next sight was the coon had Max under water. I fired a shot from a 642 I keep in my pocket and Max was able to get away and headed to the house. I was holding the flashlight and the coon was swimming away, 15 to 20 feet. I took careful aim and saw the shot splashed a few inches to the left. Careful placement of the next 2 shots got the same results. The last shot I placed to the right and hit him dead center.

My thoughts are the flashlight reflection on the revolver caused this? Has anyone had similar results shooting at night?
Click to expand...
The problem I see is not able to control the dog, which I can understand but shallow angle shooting at water?
Where did the ricochets go?
 
More valuable to citizen self-defense than any gadget is an open mind and situational awareness. Something goes bump in the night outside your position? Turn on every outside light whose switches you can reach from cover. Something moving inside your house? Same tactic but from inside a room not the same as the noise.

The goal is to stop the action - flooding the location with light without being seen can be extremely helpful in ridding yourself of intruders without rounds out.
 
I have to explain that having the flashlight mounted on a gun or held any ware near your head is inviting death. Lets say the bad guy breaks in your house and you hear that and get up and grab your flashlight and gun. With the flashlight on the gun you look for the bad guy. He sees the flashlight and where does he shoot? but at the light. Bang your dead. However if you have the flashlight at your left arms length away from your body the bad guy shoots at the light and either misses or shoots the light out. When you see his shot you fire at it and bang, the bad guy is dead.
Now which scenario are you going to like???

What this tells you is " NEVER ever have a flashlight near your head, because that is where the bad guy is going to shoot."
 
I'm just going to say that doesn't beat just using your night vision, trust it - been there, done that . . . . . 🤔
 
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