Shooting while moving training.

[Mister X]

Stepping aside in a knife assault will get you stabbed! When you step aside you lose continuity of defense, a critical component of fighting. Then you have to regain it, that is to need to readjust into fighting mode. inam speaking about defensive composure. If you are unarmed, it is much better to stand your ground and concentrate on the attacker's knife hand position. If you have learned how, it is relatively easy to take the knife away. Not as easy as taking a handgun away, but easy enough. The secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist. Since I could write a book on that topic, I'll just stop there.

Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Whose class was this?

The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.

 

[Mister X]

The firearms class was two days of a seven day unarmed and armed self-defense course Peyton Quinn used to put on at RMCAT in Lake George, CO. (pretty sure Peyton aged out and retired).

I don't recall who he had teaching the pistol portion of the course. Bill Kipp taught the unarmed section.

Peyton is still around. You could probably e-mail him and ask who he was using to teach the firearms portion back in 2007.

Thank you very much.

 

[Ziggy2525]

Forget it. If you follow it you might die.

I respect your effort to learn, yet I think you were ill advised. I have fought adversaries with guns and knives at close quarters, and I am able to write this post because my training kept me alive. It is past my bedtime so forgive typos. I am tired.

Stepping aside in a knife assault will get you stabbed! When you step aside you lose continuity of defense, a critical component of fighting. Then you have to regain it, that is to need to readjust into fighting mode. inam speaking about defensive composure. If you are unarmed, it is much better to stand your ground and concentrate on the attacker's knife hand position. If you have learned how, it is relatively easy to take the knife away. Not as easy as taking a handgun away, but easy enough. The secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist. Since I could write a book on that topic, I'll just stop there.

If you are being attacked by a knife neither the Isosceles nor Weaver position are of any value, but Weaver is better because it offers cover of vital organs better than Isosceles.

Today there is a better option.

By luck I had the good fortune to meet Paul Castle around 2002. Paul, who died in 2011, was the creator of the the Center Axis Relock (C.A.R.) gunfighting system. He was a proven warrior in the British military and police. He designed the system from decades of experience. If you want to learn more about the C.A.R. System start here: http://www.sabretactical.com/CAR.pdf

The C.A.R. Gunfighting system really makes the Weaver and Isosceles stances obsolete for close quarter combat. If you really want to educate yourself in self defense, you must evaluate the system. While I value the many things I learned in the Corps, the C.A.R. system is better when it comes to civilian self defense.

I have no financial or otherwise economic interest in any entity offering training in the System. I write about it only because it is a life saver. Learn about the System and then re-evaluate your thoughts on this thread.

I've never been in a gunfight or a knife fight. Never had to draw my pistol in self defense. Since you've mentioned you have been in multiples, maybe you could help me learn from your experience. Here are some areas I'd like to learn more about based on your post. Not trying to put you on the spot, just learn from your experience.

Shooting Stance: I try to take a tactical shooting class at least once a year. I've never had an instructor recommend Isosceles for anything but competition. Pretty much everyone recommends a boxing/wrestling stance. When shooting using both hands, your arms are Isosceles'ish with the pistol aligned with your dominate eye. I've heard that referred to as a "natural stance." What do you see as the weakness in that approach.

Moving Perpendicular to Knife Attacker: You say moving perpendicular to a knife attacker, away from the knife is a sure way to get stabbed. Help me understand that. From a geometry/trigonometry standpoint, moving perpendicular away from the knife creates the most distance the fastest. Most people can move laterally faster than they can move backwards and are less likely to trip. I'm a little confused on your approach. Could you elaborate?

CAR vs Retention Shooting: I did look up CAR. I could see how it would be very useful shooting seated from an automobile, but I'm struggling to understand how bringing the pistol up to your face and acquiring the sights would be faster than shooting from retention when when your attacker is very close. Can you provide some additional details on how that works.

Knife Disarms: I've taken a few courses where people advocate controlling the wrist. Grabbing the wrist is a fine motor skill. I've never seen it work when the people went all out. The defender always "died." Maybe someone that did a lot of Jujitsu. Can you talk a little more about your technique.

Not trying to put you on the spot. Just trying to learn from someone that's BTDT.

 

[dougb1946]

Only if you hunt birds that shoot back . . .

If you are receiving fire, it just may not be practice. But if you are looking for moving targets from unexpected places on rough ground, it would be this or paintball games.

 

[Mister X]

Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?


[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VJlhV3BnlS8[/ame]

 

[Mister X]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPYGfMAujo[/ame]

 

[Walkingwolf]

Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.

He speaks the truth, I have been attacked on duty a few times by a knife holder. Stabbed twice, cut once on the thigh. As bad as that sounds I was good as new with a couple stitches. NONE of those times did I attempt to draw let alone shoot. In fact I assaulted the person with the knife, and did exactly what he explained. Taking a stab, or cut to a non vital area of the body is preferable to getting your throat cut while trying to get, or hold a gun.

If you bring a gun to a close knife fight you will lose. First since we are law abiding citizens the attacker is already armed at ready. We cannot use force until we are threatened. The time you waste getting your gun is possibly going to be your last time above ground. If you can run, RUN, if not disarm your attacker, even if you get cut on the hand, or arm. A stab is not going to put you out of commission. And slicing is difficult in hand, to hand.

Situational awareness will keep you alive far longer than tactikewl training. Seems these guys have to invent new ways to make money.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?


GunFu: Rob Pincus, Combat Focus Shooting, "Shooting on the Move" - YouTube

Cowboy tactics~~remember the cowboys on horseback in the movies shooting behind them? How do you think that worked. 2012 two NYPD officers encounter a man with a gun who had already shot a victim. One officer stood his ground, one officer shot exactly in the manner of Rob. Nine bystanders were shot that day. It is complete waste of time to shoot, and not hit the threat.

If you can move, MOVE! You will move faster if you are concentrating on moving. Then when gaining some distance you might be able to draw, and fire. It might be just me, but if somebody threatens me with a knife, whether it is in their hand, or pocket, I am already backing up, and moving away. Not standing like an idiot waiting for them to pull it. Two people of equal abilities he person who has a knife running forward will easily outpace the person drawing, and trying to run backwards.

Sometimes police officers have no choice, but most of us do. Don't engage, don't be a target/victim.

Remember the whole point of a paid trainer, is to make money. Competition is high in the tactical market.

 

[richardw]

Please don't stop there, I for one would love to hear more about your method for easily disarming a knife wielding attacker unarmed. Why not write a book? If you have the answer to a problem, which has apparently eluded every instructor I've trained with or read about over the course of the last three decades, you could make millions. If not interested in money, do it to help save innocent lives.

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Combat, and tactical skills takes much more than taking a class once a year. It takes hours, upon hours of hands on training. And then that training has to good training to start with. If a trainer does stupid things to make a point, then his training is flawed.

Most of us have the training built in to NOT get into those situations in the first place. If you don't you can work on them daily without very much effort. It is like driving a semi tractor trailer, if you are not looking ahead you are going to get caught with your pants down. Outside of working as police officer I have had little violent contact.

Mostly because I avoid violent contact, it is not that hard. Ask yourself, where am I most likely to get attacked, then don't be there. Places you can't avoid like say a shopping center parking lot, do not let people get that close to start with. If someone starts an argument, don't argue back. Keep your distance from people that make your hair stand up. I can go on, and on, but then I would have to charge you a ridicules fee for tactical situational awareness training.

 

[richardw]

I've never been in a gunfight or a knife fight. Never had to draw my pistol in self defense. Since you've mentioned you have been in multiples, maybe you could help me learn from your experience. Here are some areas I'd like to learn more about based on your post. Not trying to put you on the spot, just learn from your experience.

Shooting Stance: I try to take a tactical shooting class at least once a year. I've never had an instructor recommend Isosceles for anything but competition. Pretty much everyone recommends a boxing/wrestling stance. When shooting using both hands, your arms are Isosceles'ish with the pistol aligned with your dominate eye. I've heard that referred to as a "natural stance." What do you see as the weakness in that approach.

Isoscleles was designed by a world class target shooter. Why people see it a a good gunfighting stance I will never get. It puts up a big target with all your vital organs facing the shooter. The Weaver stance presents your side which is being covered by a lot of your non dominant arm. The C.A.R system uses a modified Weaver.

Moving Perpendicular to Knife Attacker: You say moving perpendicular to a knife attacker, away from the knife is a sure way to get stabbed. Help me understand that. From a geometry/trigonometry standpoint, moving perpendicular away from the knife creates the most distance the fastest. Most people can move laterally faster than they can move backwards and are less likely to trip. I'm a little confused on your approach. Could you elaborate?


What most people forget is that an attacker can close distance very very fast. A man can rush five feet forward in a second. Backing up places you off balance. If you are rushed you are going down. Lateral movement takes all you hand defensive tools and aims them in the wrong direction. Remember a knife attack is fast. You only get a few seconds to defend yourself.

In a post above this one I described how I was taught to defend against a knife attack in response to a query on that topic. It will make it clear that you face your opponent for a good reason.

CAR vs Retention Shooting: I did look up CAR. I could see how it would be very useful shooting seated from an automobile, but I'm struggling to understand how bringing the pistol up to your face and acquiring the sights would be faster than shooting from retention when when your attacker is very close. Can you provide some additional details on how that works.


Shooting from retention is a reasonable way to do it, but the advantage to C.AR. Is two fold. First, from retention your gun is aimed low. You are likely to hit the stomach are or groin. That is not a reliable area for incapacitating. Second, you gun is in one hand and easy to grab as it is extended. If you want to bet you can shoot faster that the bad guy can grab, it's your choice.

C.A.R. In a close in encounter has your side to the the bad guy not your front as from retention. And your arm is covering as in Weaver. Holding the gun close to the chest makes it harder to grab and provides stability to the gun. Most importantly, it places the muzzle of your gun at chest height. If you if you are about the same height as the attacker you are going to him in the same area your gun is being held. You take a shot then angle up slightly and shoot again, even a third time if he is real tall. Those are all center mass shots and likely incapacitating. With a little practice you can come to the firing position as fast as drawing from retention.


Knife Disarms: I've taken a few courses where people advocate controlling the wrist. Grabbing the wrist is a fine motor skill. I've never seen it work when the people went all out. The defender always "died." Maybe someone that did a lot of Jujitsu. Can you talk a little more about your technique.

Not trying to put you on the spot. Just trying to learn from someone that's BTDT.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Barrier defense against dog attacks, could also be used to defend against knife attacks. Get to that barrier, use it, use the time to draw your weapon. It is all part of every day situational awareness.

I used a bicycle I was riding to stop a dog attack using the bicycle as a barrier. I did not get a chance to draw because a passing motorist attempted to hit the dog forcing him to run away. Without that barrier I would have been mauled before I could shoot.

This is also a police crowd control tactic to use barriers to control crowds. Be creative, use whatever tools are handy, or obstacles. In a parking lot, use a car, a shopping cart. Walking down a road or sidewalk use a tree. Again I could list more, but none of you have paid me my high tactical barrier training fee.

Notice in both videos that obstacles/barriers are available during the simulated attack. Yet both these trainers advise running, and shooting as to the standard of using cover, or obstacle self defense. Of course there likely is not target standing to use in real life, but there are trees, benches, signs, cars. In the one video there are clearly cars, what trainer does not teach to use the most logical defense?

Nowhere to run, barrier/counter, improvised weapon. There are hundreds of these REAL life training videos. This clerk was probably only paid minimum wage to bring you this training though.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRnmkSxYHCY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRnmkSxYHCY[/ame]

 

[Mister X]

He speaks the truth, I have been attacked on duty a few times by a knife holder. Stabbed twice, cut once on the thigh. As bad as that sounds I was good as new with a couple stitches. NONE of those times did I attempt to draw let alone shoot. In fact I assaulted the person with the knife, and did exactly what he explained. Taking a stab, or cut to a non vital area of the body is preferable to getting your throat cut while trying to get, or hold a gun.

If you bring a gun to a close knife fight you will lose. First since we are law abiding citizens the attacker is already armed at ready. We cannot use force until we are threatened. The time you waste getting your gun is possibly going to be your last time above ground. If you can run, RUN, if not disarm your attacker, even if you get cut on the hand, or arm. A stab is not going to put you out of commission. And slicing is difficult in hand, to hand.

Situational awareness will keep you alive far longer than tactikewl training. Seems these guys have to invent new ways to make money.

I never said anything about drawing and shooting. The focus of my post you're quoting is unarmed defense against a blade and his statements "it is relatively ease to take the knife away" and "the secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist".

How is he right in your incident? You got cut. I don't call that easy.

Unless you are disarming a toddler or an elderly person, an unarmed knife disarm is an extremely difficult and dangerous scenario and to call it easy is nonsense. It is possible to successfully disarm someone and not get cut, but against a young, strong street savvy man intent on doing you harm, it is usually only pulled off by someone with a lot of training, a high level of skill and possessing a lot of natural athleticism. A lot of success vs failure boils down to the individuals involved.

Most of what is taught in martial art schools and combatives classes including the military will not likely be effective against the most common street attacks with blades. The assailant is much more likely to use a quick pumping action much like a prison shanking rather than the exaggerated thrusts and controlled slashes that most programs teach.

 

[fdw]

I try and take one or two defensive courses a year and have done some shooting while moving. While I have no idea as to if it would actually help in a real life situation I do believe it raises my confidence level, as the other drills we practice do, retention, firing while sitting, low light, etc.

 

[Mister X]

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

Do you have a link of someone demonstrating this?

 

[Walkingwolf]

Here is person who survives using tools available, that includes people, running, finding a safe place. He was hurt, but survived, even though the attacker appeared more healthy.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrN-ax2eJA"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBrN-ax2eJA[/ame]

 

[Walkingwolf]

I never said anything about drawing and shooting. The focus of my post you're quoting is unarmed defense against a blade and his statements "it is relatively ease to take the knife away" and "the secret is to stop the arm and disable the wrist".

How is he right in your incident? You got cut. I don't call that easy.

Unless you are disarming a toddler or an elderly person, an unarmed knife disarm is an extremely difficult and dangerous scenario and to call it easy is nonsense. It is possible to successfully disarm someone and not get cut, but against a young, strong street savvy man intent on doing you harm, it is usually only pulled off by someone with a lot of training, a high level of skill and possessing a lot of natural athleticism. A lot of success vs failure boils down to the individuals involved.

Most of what is taught in martial art schools and combatives classes including the military will not likely be effective against the most common street attacks with blades. The assailant is much more likely to use a quick pumping action much like a prison shanking rather than the exaggerated thrusts and controlled slashes that most programs teach.

If you get in a knife fight you are probably going to get cut. The primary goal is surviving, but may be lucky in not getting cut. Get attacked by a dog, you probably are going to suffer a bite wound. Some training is just outright poor training no matter how much you pay for it.

People survive attacks with virtually no training just using instincts. The only people I have seen shot in that shooting style shown in the video is innocent bystanders.

Even if you manage to get a hit while moving, and shooting that style it will most likely NOT stop the attack. An attacker can still attack for several seconds even when the heart is completely destroyed. It will take a head shot, pelvis shot, or spine shot. Chances are extremely low for a hit, let alone a CNS hit. IMO the training is in how to spend your money with the least results.

 

[Walkingwolf]

Let me ask. When you(general) go to the grocery store to pick up one item, do you get a cart? And if you do get a cart do you grab one in the parking lot, or wait till your inside?

 

[Ziggy2525]

Regarding incorporating movement while using a handgun to defend against a knife(or any contact weapon)...

Thoughts?


GunFu: Rob Pincus, Combat Focus Shooting, "Shooting on the Move" - YouTube

Two comments. Not as any kind of expert gunfighter, but based on the simunitions FoF training I mentioned earlier.

1) When an athletic attacker was rushing us as fast as they could, the people in my course couldn't move backwards fast enough to make Rob Pincus' style work (in the class I took - 80% were active police officers or active duty military). With Pincus' approach, most of the people in the class also ended up spraying their shots and not hitting the attacker. It would be easy to try at full speed with Airsoft or paintball and see what kind of results you get.

2) In the times when Rob Pincus moved laterally, he moved in the direction of the knife and into the line of the attack. If he would have moved the other direction, away from the knife, he would have forced the attacker to shift the line of attack and given himself some space. With the targets acting as a wall, he didn't have a lot of space, but he had some.