Shooting while moving training.

[Muss Muggins]

I have no problems at all with your posts most others. My comment was directed to only a couple of posts and I didn't make that very clear. My bad.

My background is primarily in the ECQ realm and various martial arts. I've posted most of them before.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/139508585-post185.html

A proper cv lists places and titles . . .

 

[Walkingwolf]

Let's throw some more real life reality on the fire.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQYJt9reBs"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiQYJt9reBs[/ame]

 

[Mister X]

With a single knife wielding attacker, it was from 3 or 4 feet out to 20 feet. Exploding off the X isn't contrary to what I'm talking about.

What was taught in the class was you want a stable platform during the moments you're shooting. You don't want your feet dancing or running while you're shooting. You aren't taking up a full isosceles or weaver stance. You aren't pausing to sing the full course of "row row row your boat" before taking the next step.

You move perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon, drawing while moving. Even at 3 feet, the perpendicular move provided enough separation to allow drawing from strong side concealment. You pause your feet and turn your body towards the attacker just momentarily so you have a stable platform and then fire from retention. You move again perpendicular to the attacker, away from their weapon. You pause momentarily again so you have a stable platform and fire from retention.

My experience in the class was that people that didn't do the pause to get a stable platform (move and shoot) missed a lot and got stabbed (with a fake knife obviously). The people that paused when shooting (move, then shoot) hit the attacker almost every time before they could be stabbed (the class assumed multiple shots to the attacker before being stabbing stopped the threat).

That was my experience. YMMV.

I talked to Peyton and he thinks he would have taught your class himself.

Is this what you're referencing? From about 2:40-4:15

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JS_wLhBFY4[/ame]

 

[Muss Muggins]

What happens when the attacker is left handed?

Let me start by saying that there are already good books and videos about hand to hand defense. Look for Krav Maga an Israeli system it MARMAP, Marine Martial Arts Program. I think there are even YouTube videos on both, and there might be phone/tablet app for them too.

Here is what I learned, when and where.

Defending against a knife attack

In 1960 in Marine Corps Infantry Training Regiment (ITR) now called called School of infantry. It was an 8 week course that you did after 12 weeks of boot camp. In boot camp we learned the fundamentals of hand to hand combat. In ITR It was not uncommon to practice those skills ten to twelve hours a week so at minimum you had 80 hours of training and practice. Part of that training was fending off a knife attack. When you were assigned to an infantry battalion that practice continued several days a week for several hours. You learned by rote.

Here is what we were taught. For the purposes of this description I am assuming a right hand attack from the front. If the attack comes from the side you have to pivot to face it. If the attack comes from the rear, say your prayers. Of course the fundamental rule is never let an attacker get behind you.

Keep in mind that these five steps have to be done in rapid succession.

Step one: face attacker head on with feet shoulder width apart. The stance is important. Keep you eyes shifting between the knife and attacker's eyes. Frequently the eyes will telegraph where the knife will be aimed.

Step two: using the left arm block the attacker's arm by placing your arm against his near the wrist. You should use that part of the upper side of your arm a bit below the wrist. That way you can keep maneuvering your arm along his as he tries to pull away or otherwise maneuver. Never grab the wrist at this point of an encounter. If you miss you could end up dead. The idea is to keep the knife away from you not to take it until later.

Step three: this is critical to get right. Staying in stance mentioned in step one, as you block with your left arm with you right arm make a strong fisted jab at the attacker' nose. You are not going for a knockout punch. You want to keep him off balance. Follow that with a heel of the palm of your hand upward under his chin. Use all the strength you can muster. That violently snaps the head back and causes a serious jolt to the brain stem/ spine junction. Done hard enough it can knock a person unconscious or kill him.

Step four: as soon as you have delivered the palm thrust, pivot on your left foot placing your right foot directly under his arm. This puts you at an angle to the attacker. While blocking his arm with your arm smash your right elbow into his face.

Step five: bring your right arm at your elbow over the attacker's arm at his elbow. Pull up on his elbow and push down on his wrist until you hear a crack. That is his elbow being dislocated. His arm is now practically useless to him. If he does not drop the knife grip his hand with your two hands and twist the wrist so the palm is going upward facing the sky. Continue to twist the wrist until he drops the knife of you break his wrist. At which point if he fails to drop the knife just take it from him. It's safe to do that because you have really destroyed his ability to use the knife.

All five steps should take no more than three to four seconds. That takes a lot of practice, but it is quite possible to master. If the knife attack is from the left side then you have to do the same thing to that side.

So in summary it is block, punch, thrust, lock arm, break wrist, disarm. I can assure you it works. I had to do it once in Nam, and I was really glad I did not have to go through that twice.

Forgot one thing. Never rush the attacker make him come at you. People in motion has less balance than those who are stationery.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I talked to Peyton and he thinks he would have taught your class himself.

Is this what you're referencing? From about 2:40-4:15

stresshooting fireams training watch some action scenarios URL at end.mp4 - YouTube

It was in March 2007. IIRC, Peyton had one or two abscess teeth. He participated some in the shooting portion, but was really hurting, so he had someone else lead the indoor shooting instruction. Peyton did lead the outdoor range stuff.

RE: the video with Bill Kipp as the knife wielding attacker. Similar, but not exactly. Been ten years, but my recollection is we used blanks and simulations. No "rubber bullets" or Airsoft. Attacker had mask, chest protector, and coat for protection. Practiced from 20' down to 3' or 4'. Don't recall the attacks being that sloppy, but they did adjust the pace of the attack depending on the skill of the student. A couple principles in the video are the same. Move perpendicular to the line of attack, away from the weapon. Never turn your back towards the attacker. Not in the video, but like I mentioned in my earlier post, if you're moving, move. If you're shooting, shoot. No happy feet. Stable platform when you shoot.

 

[Mister X]

It was in March 2007. IIRC, Peyton had one or two abscess teeth. He participated some in the shooting portion, but was really hurting, so he had someone else lead the indoor shooting instruction. Peyton did lead the outdoor range stuff.

RE: the video with Bill Kipp as the knife wielding attacker. Similar, but not exactly. Been ten years, but my recollection is we used blanks and simulations. No "rubber bullets" or Airsoft. Attacker had mask, chest protector, and coat for protection. Practiced from 20' down to 3' or 4'. Don't recall the attacks being that sloppy, but they did adjust the pace of the attack depending on the skill of the student. A couple principles in the video are the same. Move perpendicular to the line of attack, away from the weapon. Never turn your back towards the attacker. Not in the video, but like I mentioned in my earlier post, if you're moving, move. If you're shooting, shoot. No happy feet. Stable platform when you shoot.

He says he doesn't know who it would have been, if it wasn't him. Irregardless, it would have been someone teaching his methods under his direction. Number 1 is his response to a copy/paste of post #30. Number 2 was regarding overview questions of the basic movement he uses in the drill. The fact he is expecting an assailant to fully commit from a long range charge explains the why.

From Peyton Quinn via email...

" 1. If this is supposed to reflect my stress shooting class then it is not fully accurate. Pausing for a stable platform can be done but it demands perfect timing. Under stress that's hard to achieve.

Further if the stepping off the attack line on a charging enemy is done right, he runs past you as he can't change his vector when running to get you at flat out speed. This is where timing is important, move off too soon and he can track and change his vector.

It is not necessary to have stable shooting as your brain (amygdala) won't let you take your eyes off the threat.

In my classes virtually nobody misses the attacker even as they are moving away.

My friend a lot of misinformation is out there about shooting incidents and what the skill set needed is. Once you have been there for real you see the truth. The more realistic the scenario and that means engaging a real adrenal dump, then it is easier to understand why the sights can't be used.

The foot work can be a shuffle or a step, it depends on the individuals leg length to some extent and their proclivity for moving really. It has to be simple, do not over think it get the essential concept of his being commited to the attack line before you move.

Now at 3 feet that is not available period as he has no real forward inertia. The only defense then is to slap the weapon, (maybe get cut too) as you step aside draw and fire. Most people are right handed so this means slipping the knife arm to the right as they move to the left and fire.

2. I have been doing this drill at RMCAT/STRESSHOOTING for over 30 years really. It somehow became known as the Tueller Drill I discovered years later to show police how quickly a person can close distance with knife attack.

The basic idea is a person 23 feet away can charge with a knife and stab a person repeatedly before that person could draw a concealed weapon and shoot and stop him. Indeed even with a quick draw exposed holster ( like some police carry) we saw that few people could draw and fire before contact with the knife was made.

The solution was to allow the attacker to be fully committed to the attack line and stepping off that line and to the side (diagonally), forward or backward and fire. After having been shown the technique half the people who failed , succeeded in the first attempt at using the technique. The other half took only two or three practice tries to get it correctly and avoid being stabbed.

Any technique that can't be learned in a few minutes really is often too complex to work under the stress of a real situation. That is part of my training philosophy with a very few exceptions.

Training methodology is really everything.. This is why boxers can easily defeat very quickly most Asian style trained MA people. It is not the techniques of boxing, which are only 5 anyway, but its contact stress training method."

 

[Ziggy2525]

He says he doesn't know who it would have been, if it wasn't him. Irregardless, it would have been someone teaching his methods under his direction.

Unless you were there, how much or how little direction Peyton provided during my class is just speculation on your part. You would have no idea how functional or unfunctional he was to direct anything. If you weren't one of the 11 or so other students in that class, you're just guessing. You have no idea if the instruction was 100% Peyton, 99.9% Peyton. 95% Peyton. Having only taken the shooting course at RMCAT once, I can't compare it to any other class experience there.

I'm totally good having the conversation about your experience with RMCAT vs mine, but unless you happened to be in my class, don't tell me what my experience was.

Any technique that can't be learned in a few minutes really is often too complex to work under the stress of a real situation.

That was the philosophy I came away with. For both the unarmed and the pistol course. A few simple techniques that can be used by normal people, under extreme stress, across multiple scenarios. I don't know, maybe something like... If attacked with a knife, step off the attack line away from weapon. When you're moving, move. When you're shooting shoot. Don't mix them.

In my classes virtually nobody misses the attacker even as they are moving away.

I get that's Peyton's position. I didn't watch the video a second time, but I'm pretty sure even the video you linked doesn't support that.

Now at 3 feet that is not available period as he has no real forward inertia. The only defense then is to slap the weapon, (maybe get cut too) as you step aside draw and fire. Most people are right handed so this means slipping the knife arm to the right as they move to the left and fire.

Great for a right hand attack. How's that work with a left handed attacker? Or are there two techniques now, not just one?

I totally want to leverage your 30 years of teaching ECQ self defense. It could really help everybody on this forum. What's the simple, unified technique that you teach, that only takes a few minutes to learn, that a normal person (not a UFC invitee or Olympic martial artist) can use, and works against both a left and right handed knife attack? Could you post a video? How valuable would that be?

 

[Muss Muggins]

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

 

[Mister X]

Unless you were there, how much or how little direction Peyton provided during my class is just speculation on your part. You would have no idea how functional or unfunctional he was to direct anything. If you weren't one of the 11 or so other students in that class, you're just guessing. You have no idea if the instruction was 100% Peyton, 99.9% Peyton. 95% Peyton. Having only taken the shooting course at RMCAT once, I can't compare it to any other class experience there.

I'm totally good having the conversation about your experience with RMCAT vs mine, but unless you happened to be in my class, don't tell me what my experience was.



That was the philosophy I came away with. For both the unarmed and the pistol course. A few simple techniques that can be used by normal people, under extreme stress, across multiple scenarios. I don't know, maybe something like... If attacked with a knife, step off the attack line away from weapon. When you're moving, move. When you're shooting shoot. Don't mix them.


I get that's Peyton's position. I didn't watch the video a second time, but I'm pretty sure even the video you linked doesn't support that.



Great for a right hand attack. How's that work with a left handed attacker? Or are there two techniques now, not just one?

I totally want to leverage your 30 years of teaching ECQ self defense. It could really help everybody on this forum. What's the simple, unified technique that you teach, that only takes a few minutes to learn, that a normal person (not a UFC invitee or Olympic martial artist) can use, and works against both a left and right handed knife attack? Could you post a video? How valuable would that be?

Only the first, short paragraph is mine. The entire rest of that post is quoting Peyton. I don't know Peyton Quinn, have never trained with him and his instruction and ideas obviously differ quite a bit from mine. I only asked his opinion and am just relaying what he said to better understand what you were describing because it didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

In terms of my statement. You said Peyton was there, but was ailing. He said it was his class and has no idea who else would have taught for him. So, yes I'm assuming that if he had someone fill in for him, they would teach his material as directed by him.

 

[blues7]

I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

I've had similar experiences.

The problem with choreography is that the real world rarely presents you with a partner (aka opponent) willing to perform the same dance.

And I will also agree that the chances of any given encounter working out according to a particular script is very unlikely.

That said, I won't argue that the more tools you have in your toolbox the more likely you'll find one to fit the occasion.

In my own case, experience has taught me that I will usually revert to basic techniques that have become somewhat instinctive over the years. With my limited skill set KISS is what works for me, especially at this point in life.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I've had similar experiences.

The problem with choreography is that the real world rarely presents you with a partner (aka opponent) willing to perform the same dance.

And I will also agree that the chances of any given encounter working out according to a particular script is very unlikely.

That said, I won't argue that the more tools you have in your toolbox the more likely you'll find one to fit the occasion.

In my own case, experience has taught me that I will usually revert to basic techniques that have become somewhat instinctive over the years. With my limited skill set KISS is what works for me, especially at this point in life.

Well, work on a scenario that starts from 6 feet away. I throw my knife at you as I bum rush you, step on your foot, throw an upward elbow under your chin, turn sideways as you fall on your back, and I slam my other elbow on your nose. If any of the above steps get blocked, the bum rush continues, along with the elbow strikes . . .

Not sure what tool helps that, except trying to stay conscious . . .

 

[blues7]

Well, work on a scenario that starts from 6 feet away...

I'd rather not. (And I'm hoping those days are over.)

 

[Mister X]

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

There are many professional MMA fighters who are also defensive tactics instructors, including many members of the Gracie family and their affiliates. They pretty much still welcome all open challenges. I'll put you into contact with a few if you would like. St.Louis isn't too far is it?

UFC matches involve equally matched opponents with comparable skill and abilities. You pit a high level MMA fighter against an average person even one with some moderate training and the fight will be over very quickly. This is easily demonstrated.

 

[Muss Muggins]

There are many professional MMA fighters who are also defensive tactics instructors, including many members of the Gracie family and their affiliates. They pretty much still welcome all open challenges. I'll put you into contact with a few if you would like. St.Louis isn't too far is it?

UFC matches involve equally matched opponents with comparable skill and abilities. You pit a high level MMA fighter against an average person even one with some moderate training and the fight will be over very quickly. This is easily demonstrated.

Use your favorite search engine to find "MMA fighter beaten in bar/street fight." Some well known names, looks like any other bar fight. Sometimes the MMA dude wins, sometimes he loses, most of the time it's a messy wrestling match as I described above which ends in a tie. I can't link any of the videos because as you might imagine, they all contain foul language.

 

[Mister X]

Use your favorite search engine to find "MMA fighter beaten in bar/street fight." Some well known names, looks like any other bar fight. Sometimes the MMA dude wins, sometimes he loses, most of the time it's a messy wrestling match as I described above which ends in a tie. I can't link any of the videos because as you might imagine, they all contain foul language.

I came up with nothing, so send me some links via pm. Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely the average person will be able to mount much of an offense or defense in a street fight against a high level MMA fighter. Key word there is high level and I'm only referring to unarmed fights. Maybe if there is a huge size disparity. I've seen it many times first hand. The fights are usually over quickly.

So, are you coming to St.Louis or not? I would very much like to see how you are able to "take any self-serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds."

 

[Kanewpadle]

I came up with nothing, so send me some links via pm. Anything is possible, but it's highly unlikely the average person will be able to mount much of an offense or defense in a street fight against a high level MMA fighter. Key word there is high level and I'm only referring to unarmed fights. Maybe if there is a huge size disparity. I've seen it many times first hand. The fights are usually over quickly.

So, are you coming to St.Louis or not? I would very much like to see how you are able to "take any self-serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds."

When it comes to street fighting there are two kinds. Those who can and those who can't/won't. I'll take a seasoned street fighter over any other.

What people don't understand is that it is extremely difficult to prepare for someone that doesn't play by the rules because there are no rules. The one rule on the street is it's either you or me. Fighting and fighting for your life are two different things.

And quit messing with Muss. Look at the guys picture. He's huge!

 

[Kanewpadle]

Nobody can predict how he/she will react to a particular situation until he/she actually faces it. All the training in the world goes out the window when somebody punches you in the mouth unexpectedly. Watch UFC fights. Most highly trained all around fighters in the world. Unless somebody gets in a lucky punch or kick, everybody ends up rolling around on the canvas hitting anything they can find. Anybody who says they can train people to defend themselves flawlessly is lying. Anybody who claims that self defense isn't a messy, hair pulling, groin smacking wrestling match is lying. I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat . . .

You gotta love a guy with confidence. I wonder where that came from? Experience perhaps?

 

[Mister X]

When it comes to street fighting there are two kinds. Those who can and those who can't/won't. I'll take a seasoned street fighter over any other.

What people don't understand is that it is extremely difficult to prepare for someone that doesn't play by the rules because there are no rules. The one rule on the street is it's either you or me. Fighting and fighting for your life are two different things.

And quit messing with Muss. Look at the guys picture. He's huge!

Of course there is a difference, but a fairly high percentage of MMA fighters are also seasoned street-fighters. If you think there being no rules on street will matter that much and you believe by employing foul tactics you will be successful in an unarmed fight with a proficient MMA fighter, I would like to see it and I mean that literally. Many schools will accept no rules challenges if someone comes in with ill will.

 

[Mister X]

You gotta love a guy with confidence. I wonder where that came from? Experience perhaps?

I've heard it all before many times, so let us find out. All he has to do is show up. I'll even pay for his gas as long as he doesn't back out after he arrives.

 

[blues7]

Speaking of "no rules"...I still have an old videotape of recordings I made of UFC 1 through 6. (Of course I no longer have a VCR.)

Some of the bouts in the early days were hair raising in their ferocity due to the dearth of rules at the time.

I have to admit that I was disappointed for a while when it became more "civilized" but I'm sure that it was better in the long run. (At least for the health of many fighters.)

ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".

I know that as an older coot who keeps himself in pretty fair condition, I'm not against learning a new trick or two that might prove useful in a tight spot. Hope you guys can forgive the pontificating.