Shooting while moving training.

[Ziggy2525]

...
ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".
...

As totally the UN-expert, I think one of the mismatches in the thread is people have different perspectives of the threat or the risk they are preparing for. I'll toss my view out there and then everyone can tear it down.

Humor me with an analogy. I view the the problem as similar to wrestling in High School. A wrestler that practices religiously, but has mediocre athletic ability, will probably never beat the four time state champion. It doesn't matter how much heart the mediocre wrestler has. On the other hand, if that same mediocre wrestler has just a few foundational skills that he practices regularly (single leg take down, double leg takedown, arm bar, etc.), he will most likely out wrestle a better athlete with limited wrestling experience. Keep the analogy in mind for a second.

I'm not a cop. I'm not serving warrants or chasing down bad guys. I'm 60+ years old. I'm in decent shape, but there's no way I'm going to out fight or out run a professional street fighter/MMA fighter/Spetsnaz Green Beret Crip knife wielding assassin. No matter how much I train.


My self defense goal is to give me as much of an advantage as I can by using a layered defense (nothing unique to me). My layers are:

1. I don't go to stupid places or hang around with people that do really stupid things.

2. I try not to go to OK places at stupid hours.

3. I try to be situationally aware of what's going on around me.

4. My first line of active defense, if possible, is to diffuse the situation verbally.

5. Haven't had to use it, but my second line of defense is to use my old man version of runfu. Obviously only works if you're not protecting your family.

6. Also haven't had to use it, but my last line of defense is to have a few really simple tools that I can practice regularly in different scenarios and use to either give me a chance to create some distance from an attacker or give them a good reason to find something else to do. My goal is to use the tools without injuring my family or bystanders in the process (like shooting bystanders).

If I'm attacked by a professional street fighter/MMA fighter/Spetsnaz Green Beret Crip knife wielding assassin, I'm not going to win that one. At my age, no matter how much I train, nothing other than luck will get me out of that alive.

So, back to the wresting analogy. Risk wise, I see myself like the wrestler with mediocre athletic ability (age), but that has a few basic skills that I practice frequently. If I'm attacked, it most likely will be random chance at the ATM, grocery store, movie theater, getting gas at the local "stop and rob," or by a road ragger. If I'm attacked, attacker won't likely be the professional street fighter. It'll be a couple 16 year old wanna be gangsters, a drug addict (probably meth around here) or a whack job in his car. I feel like the my few basic skills will work with that crowd.

That's how I see it anyway.

 

[Walkingwolf]

You can always find the mall ninjas the moment they start with the "come to me" challenges. If you want to challenge him, you go to him.

If your so bad go to any police K9 training center, and take on their dogs. The dogs will come at you the same way a killer will with a knife. Then nobody gets hurt except for some egos.

 

[blues7]

Ziggy, your point of view makes a lot of sense to me...but then I'm 64 and in a similar place. I no longer chase bad guys, no longer fight at a dojo, etc.

I keep up my shooting skills weekly or bi-weekly and qualify yearly for LEOSA in addition to my state CCH permit.

I weight train a couple times a week but even so I'm not overconfident when it comes to having to grapple a younger man as I'd probably gas out faster. If I have to fight I want to get it over with very quickly or I will have to rely on one or another tool.

99% of it, as you say, is avoiding places and situations that put you at risk. The other 1% is beyond our control and that's just the way it is.

I try to maintain a clear focus and mindset against the day that I have to address a 1% scenario.

 

[badge]

I think, and I could be wrong is that as a civilian concealed carrier the object is not to engage if you do not have to. Seek cover or relocate out of harms way. If you must engage do so and then be ready to disengage once your threat is no more and seek cover and LE.
I don't like to see our military disparaged. Many of them have seen true combat and must be respected for their knowledge. Many LEO's have also seen combat so to speak and they too should be respected. Civilians who have seen the use of their firearms and survived should also be listened to no matter what they did to survive. Take all of the good and try and learn from it as it could and may save your life.
In my experience, when you say hoot and move it really means shoot and move to a position of cover.
I had the privilege of being trained by a real, retired Navy SEAL and I learned more in 8 hours from that man than I did at my agency in 25 years I think. I became more confidant in my abilities to do the various tasks that I was thrust into during the course of my shifts.

 

[blues7]

I had the privilege of being trained by a real, retired Navy SEAL and I learned more in 8 hours from that man than I did at my agency in 25 years I think. I became more confidant in my abilities to do the various tasks that I was thrust into during the course of my shifts.

My first SWAT school was conducted by Ft. Lauderdale P.D. back in the late 80's or early 90's. Chris Caracci, former SEAL Team 6 member and then a Ft. Lauderdale officer, was the primary trainer on that course. (I believe he later worked at Gunsite as well but I haven't kept up with his career for a few years.) Learned a lot of good techniques from Chris. (And later on from training with SAS and other military and LE teams.)

 

[Mister X]

You can always find the mall ninjas the moment they start with the "come to me" challenges. If you want to challenge him, you go to him.

If your so bad go to any police K9 training center, and take on their dogs. The dogs will come at you the same way a killer will with a knife. Then nobody gets hurt except for some egos.

He presented an indirect challenge in post#88 and I responded with a direct one. I'm just offering him a chance to demonstrate his self-declared combatives prowess on the mat. I don't live in St.louis, but it's fairly close to where he lives. I know several instructors there and will be traveling there next month myself.

I'm not sure what dogs or knives have to do with it.

 

[Walkingwolf]

He presented an indirect challenge in post#88 and I responded with a direct one. I'm just offering him a chance to demonstrate his self-declared combatives prowess on the mat. I don't live in St.louis, but it's fairly close to where he lives. I know several instructors there and will be traveling there next month myself.

I'm not sure what dogs or knives have to do with it.

That is not the way I see it, he made a comment on his experience, YOU took it to the next level. Now we see you are not even going to step up to the place yourself, you need to use surrogates. What many members are trying to get across you refuse to listen and beat your P4P drum. Sorta like that Yeager fella.

 

[Mister X]

ETA: I hope we can get past some of the unnecessary finger pointing and bravado in this thread and share information that may be useful to each other without one-upmanship. I think most of us have a common interest in self and home defense here and there is much to be learned from many points of view. No one person or system has proven to be the "be all, and end all".

I agree wholeheartedly, but some people make that extremely difficult. If you start making declarations about what you are able to do and essentially calling someone out you should be prepared to back it up. Posts like #88 derail the civility. I'll actually agree that most DT instructors completely absolutely suck. They can fight about as well as most LEO's can shoot. They usually have only taken a short certification course and only instruct at their local PD. It obviously doesn't take much and I can assure you that I and the individuals I reference are not those guys. There are exceptions of course in both instances and like I stated before, there are many high level fighters that also teach DT.

Most fighters have egos and I'm no exception. I truly try to engage in respectful debate and discussion, but there is a limit to my patience. I'm actually much gentler on here than I am in my daily life, but if you push too hard, I'm going to push back. I do not receive nor do I tolerate being disrespected in my everyday life nor will I tolerate it here. If you wouldn't say it to someone face to face, you shouldn't say it here.

 

[Mister X]

That is not the way I see it, he made a comment on his experience, YOU took it to the next level. Now we see you are not even going to step up to the place yourself, you need to use surrogates. What many members are trying to get across you refuse to listen and beat your P4P drum. Sorta like that Yeager fella.

I'll be there next month. If he truly wants me, he can have me, but in all honestly, I don't think that's quite fair and was actually going to recommend someone smaller or older.

 

[Walkingwolf]

I'll be there next month. If he truly wants me, he can have me, but in all honestly, I don't think that's quite fair and was actually going to recommend someone smaller or older.

That's funny, you actually went deeper down the rabbit hole.

 

[Mister X]

That's funny, you actually went deeper down the rabbit hole.

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Walkingwolf]

I'm not sure what you mean.

If you don't I can't help you. I guess that is what happens when someone mixes reality with fantasy.

 

[Mister X]

If you don't I can't help you. I guess that is what happens when someone mixes reality with fantasy.

What's the fantasy? This goes on in martial arts schools on a regular basis.

 

[Walkingwolf]

What's the fantasy? This goes on in martial arts schools on a regular basis.

You planning on using your firearm in MA class to defend yourself?

 

[Mister X]

You planning on using your firearm in MA class to defend yourself?

No. What in the world are you talking about?

 

[Walkingwolf]

No. What in the world are you talking about?

I am talking about the topic of this thread. But I believe somewhere along the line vanity has blurred the opening post.

Do you plan on shooting another student while moving/running in martial arts class?

I bet you think this thread is about you?

 

[Mister X]

I am talking about the topic of this thread. But I believe somewhere along the line vanity has blurred the opening post.

Do you plan on shooting another student while moving/running in martial arts class?

I bet you think this thread is about you?

Post #88 got it off topic. My issue is with the comment ...

"I can take any self serving my way or the highway I'm the guy who gets you home defensive tactics instructor out of his game in 1.5 seconds. I once had a force on force instructor tell me that I didn't attack him properly so he could demonstrate the technique. He said that from the mat..."

You do understand what defensive tactics are don't you?

Considering I'm the only guy on this thread who mentioned being a DT instructor and regularly brings up Force on Force training, I assumed that comment was directed towards me. Even if it wasn't, it includes me and a great many of my friends, instructors and students. If someone makes such a statement, they should be prepared to back it up.

 

[richardw]

Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.

 

[blues7]

Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.

Good idea...

The story so far:

Rocky 3 - Mr. T - I pity the fool - YouTube

 

[Walkingwolf]

Mister X and Walkingwolf,

Would you please knock it off. It is pointless from the perspective of people interested in this thread but not in the running unrelated arguments. Thanks for doing what I ask.

Sorry, this thread should get back on topic, and not be focused on anyone's ego.